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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

The fact that she went to LSE & worked for BoE. Economists often disagree, I don’t think you can say she is talking drivel.

Ultimately she is also a politician & has to utter certain things.

I find a lot of assumptions are made, people are called thick because you may not agree with them. She’s probably clever enough to recognise drivel?
Then why is she saying things that are drivel? I went to a fine economics institute as well. So what? I also went to another institution after that. The BoE makes statements that completely contradict what she says, so was she wearing ear-plugs when there or something? The 'economists disagree' is an oft-wheeled-out quote, but what does it mean? That there are no matters of observable fact regarding operational functions in a monetary economy? If so what is anyone saying at all? There's this naive view that the central core of policy as it has been delivered since 1976 is a natural law and the disagreements are about the cake icing. This is wrong.

The objectives for an economy are shared (e.g. that no-one would say: we want mass unemployment or no growth), but the route to the objectives relies either upon alignment to observed facts or ideology. This is something than can be discovered. Reeves is making entry-level errors, pretty much in line with the same rubbish I was taught at university. She thinks (says) the UK government 'borrows' the currency it issues. Bizarre that, like the local baker borrowing back the bread he sold to his customers just in case he needs more of it to sell to his other customers.

and borrowing from whom, in what way? The answer to this is seldom thought through. "Bond sales!" So that a government that can issue currency would need to go cap in hand rather than just to it's own central bank computer and credit the bank accounts it needs to make payments it needs to make. Isn't that a bit absurd?

Bonds/treasuries/gilts are merely a mechanism for something the central banks do, but don't need to do. Used to drain reserves, as I already said before, to meet the overnight interbank interest rate. But nowadays the CB (the Fed in the US case. BoE for UK) pays the interest on reserve balances now and doesn't even rely on treasuries for this.

What we are left with are bonds which are special kinds of money (an asset swap) that only rich people can hold - as an alternative to being taxed - and which form a non-defaulting base for all the stock market shenanigans Labour heroes supposedly frown upon. Which does end in actual human misery, but not for bond holders. This is a problem. Especially when they are not even necessary. Excess money can be eliminated.

If we wind our way back to the birth of monetarism, its chief architects started their theorising prior to 1970; the mid-60s. So it began under the gold-standard system. After 1971 and the abandonment of that standard the monetarist line barely changes, apart from a new element: fear of fiat issue. Remember that its adherents were largely followers of Hayek and Murray Rothbard of the Austrian school. So they already had ideological slants toward: hatred of socialism, small states as a rule, money supply control etc.

After 1971 )abandonement of gold standard) they were faced with the notion of fiat issue and supposed, for some reason, that all governments would simply go mad and just issue money at will into infinity. What you find in the theory as it crystallised in the 70s is the notion of using some sort of impediment or brake to 'match' whatever deficit a government might need to employ; since they lacked the argument of the fact of resources as a natural limit, for many reasons. And the notion of 'debt' as something hanging as a warning over any spending was posited. Friedman et al were perfectly aware that bonds no longer worked in the same way as the past (likely also aware that tax is a mere credit cancelling mechanism), but the notion of spending 'matched' by bond sales, also referred to as 'borrowing, posited as 'national debt' has a psychological function. It certainly doesn't have the function implied in the name.

Have you just ignored all the econ discussed here because you thought it was just that trivial 'disagreement'?
 
I'll stick to household finances and trying to explain to my wife that in addition to taking money out of the bank that she tries contributing at a rate greater than the withdrawals. Thinking about it maybe that isn't so different from larger scale economics in that she assures me the mare we just bought will be able to produce a foal a year and her mother just won Overall Breed Champion at the GYS......

This would be the wrong approach unfortunately. Good for you and your wife because you are currency users (i.e. you can't issue it...sadly), whereas a government like the UK is a currency issuer. You run out of money, they don't. Their only limit is resources, or competition for purchasing them.
 
I would have to disagree it would certainly take someone with far more knowledge than I have regarding economics as I wouldn't have a clue as to what it takes to run an economy, let alone a successful one. In order to assert lies were being told I'd need to fully understand the subject matter and also be able to offer a counter argument???

that has been done in detail many times

I'll stick to household finances and trying to explain to my wife that in addition to taking money out of the bank that she tries contributing at a rate greater than the withdrawals. Thinking about it maybe that isn't so different from larger scale economics in that she assures me the mare we just bought will be able to produce a foal a year and her mother just won Overall Breed Champion at the GYS......

Regards

Richard
Equating household economics with government economics is the lie, a lie that anyone should be able to understand if they consider basic observable facts
 
Problem with econ is every layman thinks it's just 'common sense' and they have most of it under the knee. Hence the view: 'they all disagree' and 'it's not really science!'

Folk are simply ignoring posts, predicated upon the view that anything other than the failed paradigm hammered into everyone's heads over 40-50 years must certainly be 'voodoo' and then making statements that have already been made redundant and demolished. It's one thing to question what people say, that's always legit, quite another thing entirely to come back with 'that's utter tosh' from the position of limited understanding of even the wrong stuff!
 
When I did a bit of economics as an UG it did strike me that all theories have a tendency to get trashed by the next in line. It’s certainly not an exact science. Of course, very few get to try their theories out in the real world.

One economic theory dominates most of the world. It is neoliberalism. It is applied differently but It’s principles are always privatisation, de-regulation and cutting public spending. Rachael Reeves adopts this ideology. It is drivel.
 
I was going to say that Le Boreing and Dave Angel should get a room but doing it in private would deprive the rest of us the spectacle of their ideological liaisons.

They remind me of religious zealots or Amway pyramid sellers.
 
I was going to say that Le Boreing and Dave Angel should get a room but doing it in private would deprive the rest of us the spectacle of their ideological liaisons.

They remind me of religious zealots or Amway pyramid sellers.
It's understandable that in your position, minimal-to-zero knowledge, it's just a shapeless blob to you. My condolences.
 
I was going to say that Le Boreing and Dave Angel should get a room but doing it in private would deprive the rest of us the spectacle of their ideological liaisons.

They remind me of religious zealots or Amway pyramid sellers.
Your choice of words reveals a certain confusion and ignorance of the matters being discussed. You use ‘religious zealot’ to describe a position that is in fact a position of non-belief in the supposed supernatural nature of the free market and worship of household economics. You confuse atheism with religious zealotry. You have expressed your own blind faith in the household model of the economy when you sang the praises of ‘ironclad discipline’ without thought or analysis, which is a choice you are entitled to, but it does reveal a triumph of unthinking faith over reason which is a clear indication of your own, er, zealotry.
 
I am no fan of Thatcherism/Reganomics/Hayek/Walters etc and as stated previously I like some elements of MMT but ultimately just see myself as just a good old fashioned Keynesian. Regarding the zealot thing you and your (spelt correctly) new chum:

1. go on a bit

2. act like PF is full of fans of neoliberalism (which it evidently isn’t)

3. treat everybody else like idiots

All joking aside and this a genuine question, what does your newly adopted home of the Green Party say about MMT? Oh and stop burning those effin tyres.
 
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I was going to say that Le Boreing and Dave Angel should get a room but doing it in private would deprive the rest of us the spectacle of their ideological liaisons.

They remind me of religious zealots or Amway pyramid sellers.

Reminds me of The Graduate.
 
I am no fan of Thatcherism/Reganomics/Hayek/Walters etc and as stated previously I like some elements of MMT but ultimately just see myself as just a good old fashioned Keynesian. Regarding the zealot thing you and your (spelt correctly) new chum:

1. go on a bit

2. act like PF is full of fans of neoliberalism (which it evidently isn’t)

3. treat everybody else like idiots

All joking aside and this a genuine question, what does your newly adopted home of the Green Party say about MMT? Oh and stop burning this effin tyres.
I don’t treat everyone like idiots….just trolls
 
I do sometimes get just the slightest whiff of condescension, and/or intellectual snobbery; a sort of 'Sigh ... this is all very basic, obvious stuff, how can anyone fail to understand it?'
 
I do sometimes get just the slightest whiff of condescension, and/or intellectual snobbery; a sort of 'Sigh ... this is all very basic, obvious stuff, how can anyone fail to understand it?'
It's more than a slight whiff...

Find an article on the wiki that confirms an opinion and become an instant expert able to patronise everyone else.
 
I do sometimes get just the slightest whiff of condescension, and/or intellectual snobbery; a sort of 'Sigh ... this is all very basic, obvious stuff, how can anyone fail to understand it?'
A bit rich from someone who called me naive for expressing an opinion on matter of history when I first started posting here
 
Blimey, you've got a good memory. I can barely recall what I posted last week.

Anyway I'm not excusing myself from the charge of condescension/intellectual snobbery. Indeed, it's probably one of my main faults.
 
It reminds me of the Blackadder episode when Percy, Baldrick and Edmund discover ‘Green’. So we 3 alone can create the finest ‘Green’ known to man.
 
Blimey, you've got a good memory. I can barely recall what I posted last week.

Anyway I'm not excusing myself from the charge of condescension/intellectual snobbery. Indeed, it's probably one of my main faults.
The charge of intellectual snobbery misses the mark. I am an intellectual pigmy on any level and more specifically been told many times that I lack the qualifications to understand economics. If I can (with a bit of reading) understand the economic concepts behind some of the topics being discussed, any fool can. I am more than happy to debate on the issues, but I have no time for those like the couple here today, who cannot argue for their instinctively held beliefs, but go straight for the sort of trolling that attacks the poster and not the post.*

*That last comment was not directed at you btw. You have I believe asked for more information on economic discussions, which suggests you are willing to engage with the arguments, and, accusations of naivety aside, consider your posts informed and amusing
 
It reminds me of the Blackadder episode when Percy, Baldrick and Edmund discover ‘Green’. So we 3 alone can create the finest ‘Green’ known to man.
If more people don’t discover Green, we’re all going to die.

Unfortunately, while Thatcher economics continues to dominates proceedings, imminent death and destruction will remain a looming threat to us all
 
I'm certainly willing to engage with the arguments in principle, and am certainly convinced that the monetarist/household economy model has served the UK, and the rest of the world, very badly. My problem is that I'm not really a 'numbers' person, and rapidly lose the plot in discussions about economics, which is why I'm mostly keeping my distance from these discussions. (And the 'intellectual snobbery' comment wasn't aimed at you).

Also, in sheer low-down political battles, Labour has to continually walk the tightrope because a) its voters want lots of different things, and b) the press is almost universally negative about the party. I think Starmer, for all his faults, was right to shut down any discussion of the merits of re-joining the EU, and is also right not to give hostages to fortune in matters of public finance. He can justifiably use the 'we haven't seen the books yet' argument here.

Of course the downside is that Labour is seen as too cautious, too fence-sitting, and too like the Tory party, and that may not be enough to win them the next election. But I can see why they're being ultra-cautious.
 
I'm certainly willing to engage with the arguments in principle, and am certainly convinced that the monetarist/household economy model has served the UK, and the rest of the world, very badly. My problem is that I'm not really a 'numbers' person, and rapidly lose the plot in discussions about economics, which is why I'm mostly keeping my distance from these discussions. (And the 'intellectual snobbery' comment wasn't aimed at you).
I cannot do numbers. Never have been able to and never will. But real economics don’t need numbers. Economics is what determines how we live and qualities like happiness need to come into any equation. Yes, economics is defined by people who do numbers, but it is not necessary. A lot of the economic gurus who hide behind numbers are no different to the priests of old who hid behind Latin, and, for the same reason, to maintain their position of superiority over an ignorant congregation and to encourage and foster that ignorance as much as possible. The language of economics is deliberately difficult, but there is no reason why economists can’t speak in the vernacular.

Because I am so bad with numbers, I spent an entire day not long ago trying to understand the numbers and concepts behind the Phillips Curve (which describes the relationship between unemployment and inflation). But at the end of the day it was apparent that the numbers start with an assumption and therefore all the numbers and symbols that follow are there to demonstrate that assumption. But if the assumption is false, so too will be any conclusion. It is no more than an equation to try to prove that high employment leads to inflation, which is clearly bollocks. The high unemployment we have had since Thatcher is a deliberate product of ideology, not some sort of natural process.

My big issue, which I will keep banging on about despite the trolls is that we now live in an economic ideology based on the morality of the spreadsheet where one side is the plus column that represents government spending that goes to business and profit, and the other is the minus column which represents spending on public services. Neoliberal economics sees the minus column as a very bad thing that must be gotten rid of at all costs. If those costs are rising unemployment, poverty and misery, that is a cost that must be paid. It sees getting the minus column down to zero, not just as a policy objective, but sees any number in the minus column quite literally as a slippery slope to totalitarianism. Neoliberalism came into being to get rid of New Deal Keynesianism, not to compromise with it. It has come to conquer public spending, not live with it.

Neoliberalism is amoral. It only looks at numbers. We need an economics that is moral, an economics that prioritises the needs of people. Not an economy based on a belief that numbers are magic.

Economics is far too important to be left to economists.
 


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