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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Kirk said:
You seem to post a lot about him though. He's also popular with middle-aged Scots. Quite the coalition he is building. Anyway, let's remind ourselves that Labour slumped to its 4th defeat in a row at the last election (and it was a big one). Maybe it's time to try something different.
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I thought the thread was about Starmer - could be wrong...
 
notaclue said:
Only three Labour leaders have won a general election in 124 years.

And if you want to say Blair was a Tory, you can make that only two. Though then there was Harold Wilson Plus Attlee was from an upper-middle class background.
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i.e. only ONE genuine change-maker who was worth electing - Atlee. Sums up the fate of the UK that since then we've had Tories with various coloured badges all taking us in the wrong direction... and still doing so.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Sort of musical chairs that will achieve nothing beyond the faces on each side of the HoC.

As has been said: Want Green Vote Green. If you want real changes and to dump all the Torie ways, that's the only real option.
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The Greens can't seem to get ahead of Reform. And they won't win the GE so there will be no dumping of the Tories by voting Green. Locally, there may be the odd opportunity though.
 
notaclue said:
Sir Keir has done an excellent job in turning Labour into the party of government. History shows how difficult that is.
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As he and Tony B Liar have shown, its actually easy IF you simply become Tories with red badges. They the ultra-wealthy come on side so they can show the Real Tories that they aren't unreplacable.

The challenge is to get the actual policies we need. Not simply to have red rosettes on the people that 'won'... who then go on as before.
 
Kirk said:
Indeed, and potentially the next PM.
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Perhaps it's a troll attracting thread to keep serial offenders from polluting the rest of the site?

iu
 
raysablade said:
After 14 years of austerity, hostility and resultant debility UK government is in no state to engineer any significant change. That is something that the Atlee, Wilson, Thatcher and Blair governments didn't have to contend with.
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I did burst out laughing at that! You seem to have forgotten that WW2 happened and the state of the UK when it ended... and the USA then wanting payment for 'Lend Lease', etc, on top of all the bomb damage, etc.

The reality is that Atlee and TBH SuperMac did *far* more to move in the right directions that any recent PM we've had, despight the UK being in effect bankrupt. From Thatcher onwards we have the same failing dogma from both of the main parties, with the LDs sucking up to either one if they could sniff some power.

I reccomend people read the book "The Five Giants" which documents what was done in context. I suspect many people would be surprised by the period WW2 and up to the 1960s.
 
Kirk said:
The Greens can't seem to get ahead of Reform. And they won't win the GE so there will be no dumping of the Tories by voting Green. Locally, there may be the odd opportunity though.
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Why dump the Tories? Any difference between the two is a fag paper here and there.l The problems that have infected the Tories and Labour.

The problems of continued social, economic and environmental decline will continue at much the same pace regardless of which of the two main powers wins the next election.

Voting for the same thing again and again and hoping for a change is bonkers
 
Seanm said:
I note that Wes Streeting thinks there’s at least one large, complex, run down institution that needs major surgery right away, before building it up can even be considered:

‘EXC: @wesstreeting throws down the gauntlet saying time for private sector help to reduce waiting lists - and no more cash for heath service without “major surgery” of reform.
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Interesting that he presents as haveing no idea what damage the 'private sector' is *already* doing to the NHS. cf PE ad naus.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I just don't really understand what's being proposed.

"There will be no more cash for the NHS but we're going to pay private healthcare providers to shorten waiting lists."

Pay them with what?

Is this new money that could be invested in the NHS or it is NHS budget that's being redirected to the pockets of private healthcare providers?
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Also: What the pirate... erm private sector does is cream off the quick-and-easy cases and dump the hard costly ones on AandE or the NHS hospital to cope with. Again PE as naus.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I want to give Streeting a little bit of benefit of the doubt here: You can't instantly increase the capacity of the NHS, it'll take months, and probably years, to build up capacity in terms of the numbers of staff to provide the extra hours' services (weekends, nights can't realistically be filled on existing staff rotas) so there's a capability shortfall in the short-to-medium term. Using the capacity in the private sector to plug that gap makes sense, provided it isn't just another Tory-style excuse to siphon off funds from public to private sector. So there is at least the germ of a reasonable idea in what is being said. The actualisation of it is key. We do not want to get to a situation where a proportion of NHS work is siphoned off to the private sector as BAU.
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Experience shows via many differently-labelled versions of the above that they all cream off money and make the situation harder for the NHS *and* patients who have 'complex' needs. The Private Sector does what the Private Sector does. They make money from whatever they can. End of.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Interesting that he presents as haveing no idea what damage the 'private sector' is *already* doing to the NHS. cf PE ad naus.
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He knows exactly what damage he’s doing. He doing it deliberately. And TBF he is doing it openly. You only have to listen to what he says to realise he means to increase privatisation

Anyone who votes for Labour to do anything to help the NHS is delusional.

A vote for Labour is a vote for more privatisation.

Nobody wants more privatisation of the NHS, but lots of people will, it seems, be voting for it.
 
Kirk said:
The Greens can't seem to get ahead of Reform. And they won't win the GE so there will be no dumping of the Tories by voting Green. Locally, there may be the odd opportunity though.
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Well, the situation won't change until people show what they want and vote for it. And for the Green vote to rise, people have to vote for them. As it is, a vote for the LP is effectively wasted because you get the same as before. Better to 'waste' a vote on showing what you want rather than wasting it on something that you don't. Because if the Green vote goes up, that helps other people to feel it may be worth voting for them.

if you don't, there is no hope. Its that simple. And given Climate Change that's a serious result which our children will never forgive us for enabling because we were too feeble to stand and and vote for changes we knew were urgently needed.
 
Kirk said:
Lefties are well known for their paranoia (and overreaction). But back to Starmer - if he wins, will you be as depressed as you were when JC lost?
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Do you really think everyone else wants to read your childish trolling? Jog on!
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
As he and Tony B Liar have shown, its actually easy IF you simply become Tories with red badges. They the ultra-wealthy come on side so they can show the Real Tories that they aren't unreplacable.

The challenge is to get the actual policies we need. Not simply to have red rosettes on the people that 'won'... who then go on as before.
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Are those policies in the Green manifesto?
 
Kirk said:
You seem to post a lot about him though. He's also popular with middle-aged Scots. Quite the coalition he is building. Anyway, let's remind ourselves that Labour slumped to its 4th defeat in a row at the last election (and it was a big one). Maybe it's time to try something different.
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What an absolute lot of shite.
 
gavreid said:
Do you really think everyone else wants to read your childish trolling? Jog on!
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I know the left have fallen on hard times - "demoralised" and "shattered" are Owen's words. Instead of posting trolling GIFs, how about addressing the fundamental question: what next for the left, or maybe, how will the left get into No. 10?
 
monkfish said:
What an absolute lot of shite.
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Not quite sure what that refers to but I'm guessing the comment about Scots. Starmer does seem to be popular with middle-aged Scots (since 2019, the chance of a 35-44 year old Scot voting for Starmer has increased by more than half). Labour is also polling well vs the SNP.
 
Kirk said:
I know the left have fallen on hard times - "demoralised" and "shattered" are Owen's words. Instead of posting trolling GIFs, how about addressing the fundamental question: what next for the left, or maybe, how will the left get into No. 10?
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Those are not fundamental questions?

The most fundamental question of all, why vote Labour? What is a vote for Labour a vote for?

That they they’re not the Tories is taken as a given. They wear different colours for a start. But what is a vote for Labour a vote for?
 
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