Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
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ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
So the correct answer is..??
So what? Such a sum pales into microscopic insignificance c.f. the obvious graft which keeps the Tories force feeding their buddies with cash.
Seanm
pfm Member
I don't think it does: it's a significant sum. Labour aren't in power yet, so they can't make good on it yet in the same way as the Tories - except by signalling where their priorities lie, which they're doing.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
It's an important amount partly because Party finances were a mess with declining membership and the ill-considered legal cases but also to signal that they're less dependent on Unite to fund the election campaign.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
I switched to green some years ago as the others all morph into 'much the same to get the support of the rabid press that tells people what to think'.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Yes. The puzzle being how they complain about high energy prices at the same time. In the UK wind power is already cheaper. And as the capacity rises will get even more competitive. Alas, this is then shrouded or impeded by the 'pricing mechanisms' the Fossil... erm wealthy paymasters of the Tories have got put onto the internal 'market' etc for electricity in the UK.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Not a wasted vote if it tells others that you are being honest. Particularly if it causes the vote share to rise.
I recommend the PPB by the Greens in Scotland. It is superb. Its central theme is: "I'm not wasting my vote. I'm voting Green."
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Imagine if everyone just voted for the party that most closely represented their own values and concerns rather than thinking a vote for anything other than the main two parties was a 'wasted vote'.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
In fairness, I think they'd be better than the Tories as that's such a low bar! The uncertainty is if they will face up to making the changes we actually need. Or can get into power at all given the monstering by the press they will doubtless face if they aren't just 'tories with red rosettes' at election time.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
Let's put it another way....
What we are currently witnessing is not anything resembling a rational debate around the proper way to govern our country for the benefit of its citizens..
What we are witnessing is 'politicking' from all sides.
What's more.. the basic 'assumptions' which have underpinned British electoral campaigning since Thatcher, have not changed.
So.. despite their catastrophic record in the last 14 years....the Tories and their media cronies..including much of the BBC, still adopt the position that the Tories just are the natural party of Govt. They are the Coconuts on the Shy, and it is up to the combined opposition to unseat them, despite their firm planting and the restricted size and weight of the balls the opposition gets to use to topple them... In short.. 'the game's bent'.
Their excuses for failure.. Covid, Wars and Rumours of Wars, World Economy etc.. are rarely seriously challenged.. much less the Neo-Lib/Neo-Con 'ideology' which underpins their 'governance'. Tax cutting and attacking/asset stripping/de-funding the Public Sector is in their DNA. ( Let's be honest.. they definitely have NOT failed in their central mission..which has sod all to do with governing for the people.)
And whilst even the most politically illiterate voter can see and feel the effects of Tory economic mismanagement and unstinting self interest, the Tories are employing Populism, especially around immigration, gender politics, culture wars and the myth of 'woke', to diver attention from their failings and scare the gullible into fearing 'even worse' Labour.
Meanwhile, Labour continue to be challenged, and not just by the Tories..on their 'Economic Competence'. The myth of Tax and Spend is still nurtured by the right, despite evidence to the contrary. We all know that it was not Labour who crashed the World economy in 2008..yet the mud still sticks. Even literally decades of austerity under the Tories and the catastrophic performance of Truss don't sway many people. Even allowing for voter ignorance, I find that odd. It's as if huge numbers imagine that simply by identifying with the Tories, they will somehow magically gain access to the Tory Club. They won't and are utterly deluded.
I share the doubts of many about Starmer's leadership and policy convictions, but there's no doubt in my mind that he is right to be cautious. Nobody in the almost totally right wing press/media is making a fuss over the Truss debacle, Sunak's 'hobbled' leadership as he looks over his shoulder towards Truss and other more competent 'enemies within'.. No.they ignore the Elephant in the Room and continue to harrass and harangue Starmer and Labour.
Pure politicking.
The last time this country faced such a severe threat to its Democracy, its institutions and its very existence etc.. the enemy was Hitler and we worked together to defeat him. No.. I'm not saying it was all 'Dunkirk Spirit' or that we all stood bravely facing the Hun like Capt. Mainwaring with a kitchen knife strapped to a broomstick.. but most knew what was needed to defeat the enemy and didn't listen to the appeasers.
IME, we are in a similar position now. The Far Right is gaining ground everywhere and the fight back has to start somewhere. It might just as well be here. I don't care how we do it and who has to swallow their pride.. we just HAVE to get these criminal Tories out of office. Now.. and for goood.
What we are currently witnessing is not anything resembling a rational debate around the proper way to govern our country for the benefit of its citizens..
What we are witnessing is 'politicking' from all sides.
What's more.. the basic 'assumptions' which have underpinned British electoral campaigning since Thatcher, have not changed.
So.. despite their catastrophic record in the last 14 years....the Tories and their media cronies..including much of the BBC, still adopt the position that the Tories just are the natural party of Govt. They are the Coconuts on the Shy, and it is up to the combined opposition to unseat them, despite their firm planting and the restricted size and weight of the balls the opposition gets to use to topple them... In short.. 'the game's bent'.
Their excuses for failure.. Covid, Wars and Rumours of Wars, World Economy etc.. are rarely seriously challenged.. much less the Neo-Lib/Neo-Con 'ideology' which underpins their 'governance'. Tax cutting and attacking/asset stripping/de-funding the Public Sector is in their DNA. ( Let's be honest.. they definitely have NOT failed in their central mission..which has sod all to do with governing for the people.)
And whilst even the most politically illiterate voter can see and feel the effects of Tory economic mismanagement and unstinting self interest, the Tories are employing Populism, especially around immigration, gender politics, culture wars and the myth of 'woke', to diver attention from their failings and scare the gullible into fearing 'even worse' Labour.
Meanwhile, Labour continue to be challenged, and not just by the Tories..on their 'Economic Competence'. The myth of Tax and Spend is still nurtured by the right, despite evidence to the contrary. We all know that it was not Labour who crashed the World economy in 2008..yet the mud still sticks. Even literally decades of austerity under the Tories and the catastrophic performance of Truss don't sway many people. Even allowing for voter ignorance, I find that odd. It's as if huge numbers imagine that simply by identifying with the Tories, they will somehow magically gain access to the Tory Club. They won't and are utterly deluded.
I share the doubts of many about Starmer's leadership and policy convictions, but there's no doubt in my mind that he is right to be cautious. Nobody in the almost totally right wing press/media is making a fuss over the Truss debacle, Sunak's 'hobbled' leadership as he looks over his shoulder towards Truss and other more competent 'enemies within'.. No.they ignore the Elephant in the Room and continue to harrass and harangue Starmer and Labour.
Pure politicking.
The last time this country faced such a severe threat to its Democracy, its institutions and its very existence etc.. the enemy was Hitler and we worked together to defeat him. No.. I'm not saying it was all 'Dunkirk Spirit' or that we all stood bravely facing the Hun like Capt. Mainwaring with a kitchen knife strapped to a broomstick.. but most knew what was needed to defeat the enemy and didn't listen to the appeasers.
IME, we are in a similar position now. The Far Right is gaining ground everywhere and the fight back has to start somewhere. It might just as well be here. I don't care how we do it and who has to swallow their pride.. we just HAVE to get these criminal Tories out of office. Now.. and for goood.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I'm not convinced that their signalling, if that is what it is... is purely for the benefit of a few wealthy business folk. It's for the press and the wider public too.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
It’s not who they’re signalling so much as what
Seanm
pfm Member
The press, sure. But not the wider public IMO. Climate change denialism in the UK is an elite affair, the number of voters who want to hear that message is tiny, completely dwarfed by those who want to be reassured that something is being done - there's lots of polling on this. Hard to see this being a popular move, far from it: the message the public is getting is that Labour don't have a plan to address climate change, or a plan for the economy, that they don't know what they're doing, that they flip flop, that they pull figures out of their arses which then disappear on contact with reality.
That's all very bad, given that it plays to existing Tory attack lines and negative preconceptions about Labour and Starmer in particular. The faction driving this u-turn will have anticipated this, they're not stupid. But it's acceptable collateral damage, as far as they're concerned: they've got votes to burn. What matters is that the people who count get the message: we're open for business. That's why they haven't just gutted the green policy initiative but simultaneously pivoted towards the City: Reeves has been very clear this week that Labour is no longer about investment, it's about the financial sector.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
The problem os that Labour are promising to be at least as bad as tne Tories, and if they follow through on their promises to pay down the debts and deficit, will cause economic chaos worse than the Tories and privatisation on a scale Sunak can only dream of.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
The message the public is getting from whom?
Reeves and others from Labour have been crystal clear that they are still committed to addressing climate change, but that they are unable to guarantee the £24Bn because of the state of the economy left by Sunak. I have heard them say this several times. How the press/media choose to interpret that is of course a different matter.
Anyone with at least one functioning brain cell can see right through the Tory attack line. 'Labour have no plan' Yes, we've heard it, from every single Tory who can get a minute on the telly. But even a minimal level of critical thinking reveals that the Tories are long on plans, but short on results, so their boast is empty... As I keep saying.. politicking..
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I rest my case.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
But it's not front page news now because the news deals with, um, new stuff.
Why would it be in the news now?
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
We are not discussing news, we are discussing the economic records and potential of Tories v Labour.
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