Klipsch La Scala (part II)

[Tony L]

The pair of 1993 Klipsch La Scalas that were the subject of Andrew (Elephantears) recent thread here are now adding a subtle finishing flourish to my living room interior decoration:

I've fancied trying a pair of these for many years now as I really like the little Heresys despite their quirks and I don't live in the type of place that KHorns would work, even if I could afford them. As such when these popped up at a price that I felt keen and with Andrew prepared to hire a van and deliver it was a done deal.

I won't comment too much about the sound yet other than to say a) they are clearly seriously good, b) they have no bass, and c) they can do a sax like no other speaker I've ever heard in my life. If there is one thing I am absolutely certain of at this point (less than 24 hours in) it is that these are the speakers that will really unlock Coltrane's world for me.

More to follow...

 

[Elephantears]

c) they can do a sax like no other speaker I've ever heard in my life. If there is one thing I am absolutely certain of at this point (less than 24 hours in) it is that these are the speakers that will really unlock Coltrane's world for me.

Hence, as a Coltrane evangelist, my heartbreak! Hearing horns on classic horn speakers - it doesn't get much better. Only S-Man's Bass reinforcement thingy has come close for me.

They are going to work better in your room and with your amps though, I'm sure. Looking forward to hearing them with subs one day!

 

[Scott in DC]

"b) they have no bass"

++++++++++++++++

Don't you need to put the La Scalas closer to the back wall and more into the corners to get the best bass?

Scott

 

[Tony L]

Don't you need to put the La Scalas closer to the back wall and more into the corners to get the best bass?

That would certainly help for sure, though just not possible at this stage in this installation. To be honest a lot is just transitioning from very warm and lush sounding Tannoys. The strange thing is that the La Scalas nail jazz double bass really well, it's just synths etc that are missing in action down there. The Tannoys could certainly sound a bit over-cooked in the bass on some stuff though, hence my going for a more relaxed cabinet loading (I ran the DIY York cabs with an air-gap on the rear 'door' to reduce the 'q' / effectiveness of the port). The La Scalas are more an '80s flat earth' in presentation I guess in that the bass sounds like a bigger Kan or SBL, i.e. very fast and agile, but a little too dry. By saying that I have tone controls, and even so I'm preferring them flat on everything bar electronica where a notch up on the Quad's bass control helps. It's early days yet and at this stage I'm struggling with volume levels as the added efficiency has made the already gain-reduced Quad 34 stepped attenuator ineffective again, I'm back in the irritating 'click 3 too quiet / click 4 too loud' zone. This is only a temporary hitch, another little tweak of the Quad's sensitivity will get me back in a usable range.

One thing I really like about the La Scala is they run the mid horn over a really wide range (400Hz to 4.5K) so even in a small room they integrate well, which was my main fear going from a dual concentric. The crossover points are nice and high / low so the mid is very clean and clear and all seems to originate from one point. The contrast from the Tannoys is very interesting, i.e going from bit two-way horn / direct radiator bass reflex to a three-way horn. They are very different animals.

 

[Robert]

Lovely stuff, and we'll soon get the amp sensitivity thing sorted.

 

[Joe P]

Tony,

Neato. I don't have much experience with La Scalas, but I had an extensive dem of Belles, which are much the same design.

I would think that closer rear wall placement and tubes would be the solution to your bass woes. Just don't expect much below ~40 Hz, even if you position and drive the La Scalas optimally.

Joe

 

[Tony L]

I would think that closer rear wall placement and tubes would be the solution to your bass woes. Just don't expect much below ~40 Hz, even if you position and drive the La Scalas optimally.

I'd not describe it as a woe, just a sense of surprise that a speaker a lot larger than a washing machine doesn't have anything like the bass it looks like it should have! The Quad's bass control is excellent in this context, just one click of lift adds back most of what I miss from the Tannoys extension-wise, I've not tried two yet, but I suspect that would be too much, and I'm preferring jazz flat, which indicates nothing is too amiss tonally.

I've no idea where I'll end up with these, but I strongly suspect they are keepers, and I fully intend to use the Quads with them for the forceable future (I've bought enough expensive stuff this year!). I tried the 'resistor trick' by fitting a 2.4 Ohm resistor in-line with the positive input of the crossover and I think that helped a bit, but I've taken it out again as Rob has kindly offered me a loan pair of his OTX Emulators so I'll be able to assess that one properly and quickly. At present it takes me at least 5 minutes to swap the resistor in and out, by which time I've forgotten what I just heard, plus it alters the level and the stepped attenuator of the Quad is currently hopeless, so I just ended up confusing myself. My plan now is just to live with them as-is for a while, relax, and really get used to what they do well / less well.

One thing that occurred to me last night is that I could actually get them into the corners if I sacrificed a shelf on each side. They will fit under the second one with about an inch clearance, i.e. if I were to relocate my books / ornaments etc elsewhere in the house and shift the bottom level of vinyl up onto that shelf it could actually be done if I wanted it to be done. This was never an option with the Tannoys as they are taller. Again, something to think about, I'm not going to rush anything at the moment.

I gave the raw birch finish a light sand-down and coat or two of linseed oil yesterday. this has thankfully all but removed the strange 'mottling' inside the bass-bin 'dog house' Andrew mentioned in his ad. It's darkened them just a little (as per pics at top of thread which were taken after the linseed oil), but if anything that fits them to the room a little better. I also checked the horn seals etc. I plan to flip them over at some point and check the bass driver seals / that the drivers are clean and bolted in firmly (which I suspect they will be, they are in very nice condition with no signs of abuse at all). There are a couple of electrolytic caps on the crossover that I'll replace at some point, but again that's a job for the future. I'm not going to do anything now other than alter the Quad's sensitivity ASAP!

 

[Dave Cawley]

You definitely need them close to the back wall. Even then, the bass won't be as you expect. Gone will be the tunnel of air like a fist punch from small drivers in thin cabinets. You will get real bass, like it once was, if it is actually there. Try Kraftwerk Autobahn and Jean Michel Jarre Aero.

You might notice the lack of compression in high dynamic range orchestral and also the very easy to listen to soundstage ?

Regards

Dave

 

[Tony L]

You definitely need them close to the back wall. Even then, the bass won't be as you expect. Gone will be the tunnel of air like a fist punch from small drivers in thin cabinets. You will get real bass, like it once was, if it is actually there. Try Kraftwerk Autobahn and Jean Michel Jarre Aero.

I was coming from 15" Monitor Golds in York cabs (same size as a Klipsch Cornwall), not the small-speaker 'punch' bass you rather accurately describe, i.e. I'm arriving at these from a 15" bass unit in a reflex cab vs. the folded horn of the La Scala. I'm sure you are right about them coming into their own in the corners - I've read a lot of PWK's writings and a lot of his thinking is based upon this positioning, so I certainly plan to try it at some point. I'm in this one for the long haul so I'm not going to rush, but yes, I suspect they'll end up in the corners....

PS any excuse to play Autobahn has to be taken...

 

[pil]

:Would take the bottom shelf out and get them in the alcoves.
Best to do it now as it's going to happen anyway.

 

[Dave Cawley]

OK, got it ! They are very sensitive to positioning as is the not so good Cornwall. I had a pair of 40 year old Klipschorns and had to modify the room, great stuff. You may go back to Tannoys, as I have gone to a new pair of new Airedales, where you get the best of all worlds. The advantage of the Klipsch is that you can drive them with a 2A3, but I don't want to!

My favourite rendering of Autobahn is on the Minimum-Maximum live album, both on vinyl, CD and SACD

Dave

 

[Gaius]

My favourite rendering of Autobahn is on the Minimum-Maximum live album, both on vinyl, CD and SACD

Dave

Yes, I like that version, it's a great live set throughout that album.

 

[Tony L]

I'll dig out the Minimum Maximum vinyl later, though Autobahn is one I always felt didn't fair well in it's 'The Mix' guise, I much prefer the original side-long version on Vertigo vinyl.

 

[Tony L]

What did you have before the lucky find first pair of Tannoys?

- ???
- Tannoy v1
- Harbeth
- Tannoy v2
- Dr Who Alien looking things from Germany
- La Scala

Is that right?

Starting at the very beginning:

JR149
Kef R101
Tannoy M20 Gold
Gale 301
Linn Kan II
Linn Isobarik
ProAc Tablette 50 Sig
Linn Kan I then II
Harbeth Compact 7ES

Plus you missed a pair of ProAc Tablette Ref 8s bought as a stop-gap between the SHL5s going and finding another pair of big Tannoys. By saying that they were in the system for less than a week, so barely count - predictably after waiting ages for a pair of Tannoys a pair arrived immediately after buying the Tabs!

I've had a few more speakers pass through (e.g. the System #2 Hereseys etc), but that's the linage of the main system since 1978! I just like speakers, they have the most character, the most to love or hate. I'm actually back running a pair of 149s again in system #2, so full circle in some respects (they are very good and a lovely contrast to the La Scalas!). I now need to get shut of a few pairs though as I've currently got far more than I can ever use and they are now just taking up space. I plan to keep the Tannoys as a fallback position / long-term investment as I do love the things, the Heresys and MEGs can go when I can find buyers.

PS The Klipsch can do a good string quartet,

 

[martin clark]

Oh good, those La Scalas been bought and I can creep out from behind the sofa and Mr Piggy is safe again.

Well done Tony!

 

[beathunters]

waow, i'm hardly ever jealous these days but the K's are true objects of beauty... i wish i could come over to hear some trane at vanguard...

 

[Elephantears]

Funnily enough, trane at vanguard (again) was the first thing I put on once we'd got them installed.

There is a gaping La Scala like hole in my listening room right now, but it's funny how they seem to suit Tony's room better.

One or two lessons from my experience though. I don't think they necessarily do work in corners. If you look at the pics on my thread when I had them either side of a 4 x 4 Expedit in the corners of my room, they were too far apart to really image correctly. It was that bloody Expedit that ruined everything for me (its gone now, a sacrificial victim).

However after I'd agreed the sale to Tony I stuck them on the opposite wall, much closer together, and this is when they clicked into place. The imaging was right now. Also I had them close to the back-wall, which I do think helps. I think the problem in my room was that they only worked when really close together, and this risked congestion. Tony seems to have lucked out a bit, because he can have them either side of his fireplace, giving a fairly wide spread, but they still retain a very strong central image. I was really surprised at this. However he was sitting really close, in a perfect triangle. In my room this configuration was not an option. Sigh.

The bass is a funny thing. Up until the last minute I had the La Scalas on slices of mdf to help move them around. Silly mistake. ONce I got them off the bass tightened up, but also lessened. Adrian Parsons has told me that raising them on solid wooden blocks helps with the bass performance, and I think it would be worth experimenting with this kind of thing.

I think the suggestion to move them back into the alcoves could work really well. It would give just that bit more breathing space, as well as reinforcing the bass. I wonder if the problem with gain on the Quad pre is also related to the extreme proximity of the listening position. Any slight volume shift is going to seem seismic. In Tony's room I felt that I wanted a bit more space to allow an instrument like a saxophone to project naturally. In spite of this, a sax sounded fantastic.

The other thing worth mentioning is how well they worked with the Quads. Again! The guy I bought them off was using 34/405-2 and it sounded very good. Rather thicker and richer and a little fuzzier than they did at Tony's, but this was down to sources. Clearly the humble Quads weave magic with horns.

All in all, the La Scalas were a bit of a rollercoaster ride for me, but I've learned so much from them, and it was great to hear them working nicely at Tony's, even after a gruelling horror-day on the M6! My one complaint - it was my first trip to Rochdale, but no sign at all of Lisa Stansfield. A great let-down.

I can't help wondering how the La Scalas would integrate with subs. It's so common in the US. I reckon if the bottom shelf does come off then subs in the corner might make make for an incredible full range system.

 

[Paul R]

The only problem I can imagine with a 405 is the, allegedly, relatively high level of hiss. I think later Quad power amps ameliorate this.

It would be really good if the north midlands PFM sub-sect could arrange for these to be at Scalford next March.

Paul

 

[Scott in DC]

Have any of you tried a Quad 303 amp with the La Scalas (or Herseys)? To Tony, would a modern pre-amp driving your Quad amp be a better match?

Scott

 

[Tony L]

Tony seems to have lucked out a bit, because he can have them either side of his fireplace, giving a fairly wide spread, but they still retain a very strong central image. I was really surprised at this.

I've toed them in further so they are now aimed with sniper-like precision straight at my ears and the image is excellent, much better than when you last heard them. Really tightly focused and they do depth and width well beyond their physical position now. They sound cleaner too - I'm pretty sure this is the best approach to horns, but not ideal if one wants more than a single-seat listening zone.

The only problem I can imagine with a 405 is the, allegedly, relatively high level of hiss. I think later Quad power amps ameliorate this.

The 34/306 is astonishingly quiet, I actually have to put my up to the horn to hear anything. I plan at some point to hook-up the Leak Stereo 20 for a giggle, I bet I'll hear that thing hissing from the next room, though I'd also bet it will sound lovely into them too - it has such a warm and organic sound that should really compliment. The combination of 125mv input for full output and 104db speakers has to be the daftest in the entire history of audio!

Have any of you tried a Quad 303 amp with the La Scalas (or Herseys)? To Tony, would a modern pre-amp driving your Quad amp be a better match?

I plan to drag my second system 303 through for a try, maybe tomorrow. I'll happily swap them over if it's better matched as the 149s in the other room prefer the more powerful and grippier 306. The 303 works very nicely with Heresys. I ran that combo in system #2 for a good while.

I tried my Audio Synthesis passive pre yesterday and it sounded lovely, though the 34 plays it surprisingly close (it is is so, so much better than internet folk-law gives it credit) plus it has the option to lift the bass a bit, which is very useful on some stuff that would otherwise sound over-thin / dry on the La Scala in their current location.