Keel Vs. GreenStreet Alternative Keel

[MVV]

So you're an authority on what turntable is subjectively "better" if such a thing even existed.

I don't recall saying anything was better. Indeed I really respect the pre circus, Ittock guys they know what they like. All the upgrades Linn have offered were to try to make the turntable sound less like a LP12.

 

[MVV]

Chill. No one is forcing you to buy one.
I've had loads of decks in my house against the LP12.......none made me want to change. Many who came preferred their decks.
LP12 hate runs deep in you, and others........not needed.

Why do you think I hate it? I struggle to think of anything or anybody I hate. It is an object.

BTW how come you are in charge of what is 'needed' or not?

 

[flatpopely]

Why do you think I hate it? I struggle to think of anything or anybody I hate. It is an object.

How come you are in charge of what is 'needed' or not?

I'm not the one with the problem with LP12, you are as stated.

 

[TheDecameron]

I've got two lp12s, I prefer the sound of the pre-circus bearing. Both are trounced by an Orbe but I still have a great affection for the sondek, it was my first love. One day I might get a solid alu sub/ armboard but wouldn't pay keel money.

 

[flatpopely]

And who's to say what grade is best for a subchassis unless one has experimented with the whole lot of choices.

I'm not.
We didn't.

 

[John]

I don't recall saying anything was better. Indeed I really respect the pre circus, Ittock guys they know what they like. All the upgrades Linn have offered were to try to make the turntable sound less like a LP12.

I see, so there is a specific spec of LP12 that IS an LP12. That's funny.

 

[MVV]

I'm not the one with the problem with LP12, you are as stated.

I moved on from it for lots of reasons. The main one was because it was so coloured and I found myself getting irritated with the bloated bass. The others were the serial and cynical 'upgrades' (to try to deal with the bloated bass) and the arrogant dealers. Getting a properly designed neutral deck was the very best hi-fi decision I ever made.

I don't 'hate' it I just think it isn't a very good turntable at it's price bracket.

 

[FireMoon]

The whole Linn debate at times reminds me of the partner people unceremoniously dumped for someone new and then a couple of years later they bump into the ex and they have shed a few pounds, changed their style to one more in keeping with the times and they now socialise far more comfortably. One feels the need to pick faults simply because they have changed and might even be the person you wished they were when you dated them. What's even more annoying is that, they have obviously been taking notice of other people's opinions of what does and does not suit them, often to their advantage.

In short, how dare the slightly chubby and style free person change slim down and bloom without consulting you.

 

[flatpopely]

I moved on from it for lots of reasons. The main one was because it was so coloured and I found myself getting irritated with the bloated bass. The others were the serial and cynical 'upgrades' (to try to deal with the bloated bass) and the arrogant dealers. Getting a properly designed neutral deck was the very best hi-fi decision I ever made.

Modern LP12s are not what you are describing, Linn work hard at improving.

 

[MVV]

Modern LP12s are not what you are describing, Linn work hard at improving.

Yes and It must be so difficult to do that with a ball and chain attached to your ankles. Still a cash cow is still a cash cow.

Anyhow gents I'm away now, I just wanted to put a bit of balance in in case any newish folk interested in turntables might think that the Linn LP12 was the only way to go.

 

[yuckyamson]

John, you asked for the differences, and I listed those that I knew, I am trying to help here. I can assure you that most aluminium suppliers will list and stock their own brand of a certain type. So for example a cast tooling plate type ally which is most likely used here will vary between different suppliers. This type of aluminium is used because it tends to remain stable when being machined in these sizes. There are quite often different grades of this and as I said before the chances of them being identical are almost impossible.

To what extent it makes a difference I really don't know, but it will be different. We tried 4 or 5 different types of aluminium for the main spar of the Akula before settling on a preference, all had a different sound as you would expect. By contrast the outer carrier material made no difference that we could ascertain (but our design is completely different)

To give you another example of material differences affecting performance take the Ittok and Ekos SE tonearms. To all intensive purposes they are a very similar shape. The bearings are also very similar. However the Ekos SE uses a different material for the headshell, arm tube and main bearing housing. Each of those components is also attached differently. The difference in performance is dramatic. Outwardly, if you coloured them the same they would look very similar.

FWIW I believe the phrase is "for all intents and purposes....", whereas the "for all intensive purposes" doesn't really make much sense.

 

[Howdy]

MVV, are you actually typing all this stuff all over again and again and again or do you have some sort of script installed that sets itself in motion every time LP12 gets mentioned on this forum (and probably others)?

 

[John]

MVV, are you actually typing all this stuff all over again and again and again or do you have some sort of script installed that sets itself in motion every time LP12 gets mentioned on this forum (and probably others)?

There some folks around here who can't just shake their LP12 angst.

The turntable in which all others are judged.

Lord knows how long it will take for him to get over the US election.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

I've got two lp12s, I prefer the sound of the pre-circus bearing. Both are trounced by an Orbe but I still have a great affection for the sondek, it was my first love. One day I might get a solid alu sub/ armboard but wouldn't pay keel money.

The Orb. The most boring deck it's ever been my misfortune to hear. Still, each to their own...

 

[James]

That is a good question. And to be fair, I'm not suggesting that all sub chassis variants should offer this as some operate with different criteria. However, in the case of the GS, it is trying to emulate the Keel system, i.e., rigid coupling. As such you will get a better coupling between the two components if you reduce the surface area connecting them - as Andrew states with the Troika example. Honestly I can't really recall precisely what areas were affected sound wise as it was a good 3 years ago when I did the comparison with the Keel and the GS but I felt it was worthwhile at the time.

That's helpful, thanks. Mine has been installed for what seems quite a few years, but I've always wanted to refinish the surface of the "arm-board". I'll consider that mod when I next refresh the springs/grommets and paint the arm-board. It seems a simple enough mod to reverse. In any case, I feel my platter rides just a touch low as well, so the shims will help.

 

[James]

It would lower the platter/bearing assembly in relation to the arm.

Ah, crap. I won't be trying that mod then.

 

[mige0]

Hi

Regarding the Tiger Paw Akula sub chassis: has anyone ever tried to mod it?

Especially with the arm board fix to the frame, there is heavy unbalance between the right rear and right front springs in an LP12.
Wouldn't it be better to seek for a more balanced distribution of sub chassis mass by adding local weight to the sub chassis at the right front spring?

The original Linn sub chassis / arm board combination always have a lateral balance without the arm mounted.

 

[TPA]

The overall centre of mass of the whole assembly has never been centrally located between the springs and there has always been a considerable difference on the amount of load each spring is carrying. In practice further variations don't make a meaningful difference in how the whole sub chassis and platter suspension system operates.

The important thing is to get the springs adjusted correctly to ensure a pistonic bounce with no rotational component. The three things that affect this most are, firstly getting the spring bolts hanging vertically, secondly making sure that you haven't got any very bent springs (they are all slightly off level) and lastly getting their orientation correct. Those things being correct then you will have a very good and consistent bounce like a normal LP12.

 

[mige0]

Thanks, Roger!
I know there is always imbalance between front and rear spring, simply due to the tone arm weight.

BUT

Linn is balancing all their sub chassis in the same manner. Why?
One that did a extended review of the aKula on the another thread reported, that depending on the cartridge, he preferred the plinth mount of the arm board or not.


This may or may not be an indicator that more uneven compressing of the springs - and thus stiffening of them - may alter sub chassis res frequency. Be it for the better or worse with respect to a certain cartridge.

My question simply was, if anybody did ever explore this point any further with the obviously asymmetric aKula?
It shouldn't be that difficult to check this out.

 

[TPA]

Due to the design of the Akula, we were able to offer the option of separate mounting of the arm board as it had no direct mechanical use within the assembly. I originally anticipated that there may be a sonic benefit but in reality it is minor. This will be for two reasons, firstly, as you state there is a small difference in mass of the whole assembly, and secondly there may be some damping of the structure that arises from having an arm board connected. The way that resonances impact sound and travel around a structure are extremely difficult to calculate but in reality, or I should say in my experience, the difference is extremely subtle. I use mine with the arm board attached on both decks now as they sound great and it is more convenient.