Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Really interesting interview with John Atkinson, former editor of Stereophile on measurement.
Keith
Keith
John Atkinson on measurement
- Thread starter Purité Audio
- Start date
CoherentSystems
Trade: Coherent Systems
Keith, I find your posts concerning measurements of audio equipment quite interesting, would you mind going in-depth and explaining why you feel this most relevant to various pieces of equipment that your retail and why you feel that having an a specific parameter in given measurement indicates a more preferable sound from which you can make a judgement on how that piece of equipment sounds?
Genuinely interested in your thoughts here, and nothing cut and pasted from asr?
Genuinely interested in your thoughts here, and nothing cut and pasted from asr?
flutteringwow
She called me baby, like an old romantic
The silence speaks volumes.
misterdog
Not the canine kind
Simple, less noise and distortion = more music.
Peter Walkers aim back in 1955, when he designed the Electrostatic loudspeaker.
http://www.meridian-audio.info/public/quad+esl+theory+pj+walker1955[3132].pdf
Peter Walkers aim back in 1955, when he designed the Electrostatic loudspeaker.
http://www.meridian-audio.info/public/quad+esl+theory+pj+walker1955[3132].pdf
CoherentSystems
Trade: Coherent Systems
Indeed a good mantra to follow, though there are a few very well know manufacturers who measurements are ruler flat 20hz<>20Khz frequency response, with a THD with four or five zero's before a figure, yet they are about as interesting to listen to say a Meridian system? Or having Magadon injected directly into your eyeballs.
Again one or two exceptions either way, BUT very rarely.
I digress apologies, more interested in Keith's OWN thoughts:
"Keith I find your posts concerning measurements of audio equipment quite interesting, would you mind going in-depth and explaining why you feel this most relevant to various pieces of equipment that your retail and why you feel that having an a specific parameter in given measurement indicates a more preferable sound from which you can make a judgement on how that piece of equipment sounds?
Genuinely interested in your thoughts here, and nothing cut and pasted from asr?"
misterdog
Not the canine kind
Though this is your opinion and not necessarily a generally accepted consensus.
My opinion is that if the artist recorded all that detail in their music why would some think it best to obscure these details with distortion and noise?
If that is your preference fine. Though the rising number of members on ASR might indicate otherwise.
Sloop John B
And any old music will do…
CoherentSystems
Trade: Coherent Systems
Indeed you are correct it is my opinion, however it is as valid as any others.
That is statement we can agree on, we have two recording studios in our portfolio, the number of times we have produced a NON radio edit mix the faces of the artists are somewhat surprised shall we say! Remember not all recordings have been with the same effort that either Martin Birch or Bob Ezrin put into their records.
Our preference to produce musical engaging systems, having a lower s/n can help without question providing the rest of the system is capable of demonstrating that s/n through out the chain.
I could site you and example of a asr touted great product that produced significant amounts of RF from the analogue outputs it etched the sound badly and required a lot of remedial work to make a long term listening prospect.
Measurements are important to all forms of electronics and are used daily to obtain insight into the product development and improvements, however it is a tool you use and in conjunction with empirical and extensive listening tests to formulate the finished article.
Our selves we have the significant audio research lab and access to two anechoic chambers, so we do have little knowledge on this subject, which is as much subjective as it is objective
CoherentSystems
Trade: Coherent Systems
Not being a Bo-Jo fan I cannot really comment my Emerald Isle friend, however the question is genuine for Keith.
narabdela
who?
Does it! I thought it was a sensible silence in response to the obvious bait.
A reply was unnecessary.
flutteringwow
She called me baby, like an old romantic
Keith has no thoughts.
Sloop John B
And any old music will do…
Ah, my land of hope and glory friend, I’d imagine Keith had one look at these £3k BNC cables and worked out how genuine your query is.
Live and let live, you’re hardly competing for the same customers.
.sjb
John Phillips
pfm Member
In my philosophy of music reproduction it's the music that is musical and the music that is engaging, not the system.
I often observe people insisting that musicality and engagement are characteristics of their systems. I'm not disputing that view, but I don't get it. Perhaps it's me misinterpreting the way language is used, but most cases the intention seems unambiguous.
To me, any system that tries to alter the musicality and engagement generated by the artists is trying to boss the music rather than, as I see it, being its servant. And ultimately trying to boss me since someone else is trying to interject their ideas of musicality and engagement into my hobby.
I have my philosophy of how a system should serve the music it reproduces. Part of that philosophy is to appreciate that artists don't always create music that is musical and engaging according to my tastes. But that's what I consider normal and I wouldn't want to change it.
So, my question is what is musical and engaging about your systems? And how do you decide?
CoherentSystems
Trade: Coherent Systems
Hello John
A very well structured and great question with some quite pertinent points, so I will endeavor to deliver the answer with the same though process.
For myself a system that makes you sit and listen to YOUR music and WANT to thumb/push/swipe/ through your collection because you wish to listen to that particular artist/composer/group/choir etc because that piece of music as it moves you.
May be it generates feelings of a certain point in your life, reminds you a special musical event or just lets you slip into a state of mental bliss due to the way the music is playing regardless of your mood/feelings regardless of whether its a bad recording.
The last point here which you also made, the ability to listen to music that may not be in your normal zone, although you may not like that style/type of music you can still appreciate the musicians talent whether for the composition or playing.
Rather than having to find those recordings which seem to sit near the top of play list for a long time, or when your friends are over, dial it up for the wow factor and feel those 15"inch drivers move some air etc.
We also share this statement:
"To me, any system that tries to alter the musicality and engagement generated by the artists is trying to boss the music rather than, as I see it, being its servant. And ultimately trying to boss me since someone else is trying to interject their ideas of musicality and engagement into my hobby."
This so encompasses a significant amount of audio products, so do I wish for music to be thrown at me @ 100Mph in up front, over exaggerated lower mid bass region, leading edged false tempo mash up with two dimensional reconstruction only? We affectionately refer to this as 'The Whippet thrashers and toe tappers club'
Or Conversely, do I really desire an 18 foot Eric Clapton (LOL), that you can drive a bus through the holographic image, with inch perfect note separation, overly polished upper frequencies, tonally over egged and stunt bass?
Is there a one true answer?, for the each individual there will be personal preferences, then taking into account room<>speaker interaction/hearing ability/mood you are in when listening etc
It is journey that each person goes on to find that 'sweet spot' is as important as being there for a lot of audio buffs imho.
The muso's are very different, equipment is means to end plus you will be spend more time discussing music, concerts and experiences than you will with any amplifier specs.
narabdela
who?
flutteringwow
She called me baby, like an old romantic
Keith still has no thoughts.
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Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Tony doesn’t understand the propagation of sound.
Keith
Keith
misterdog
Not the canine kind
Though without measurements we are just working blind. Hi-Fi, is a chain of devices not just one, each link of the chain has it's own sweet spot and hence ability to integrate in that chain.
Consider this one graph from my recently acquired pre amp.
What this shows us is that with higher input voltage there is less noise and distortion (at 0dB).
Feeding this preamp with RCA at 2V has a 2dB noise penalty over XLR at 4V. (assuming you don't wish to add noise)
" balanced XLR is only necessary in noisy environments with long cable runs, additional components are needed in balanced designs" - thread anyone?
So the sweet spot for my pre amp is running at as close to 0dB as I can, the sweet spot for one of my DACS is running at full 5.2V XLR out, and the sweet spot for my amp which has 3 input gain settings is in low gain mode.
Those three sweet spots make for a 6dB reduction in noise.
I only know this from measurements.
Once you have that basic starting point you decide if that sound is to your liking.
The alternative is just a constant merry go round of box swapping, luck and trial and error.
A friend heard my system recently an proclaimed, that's amazing there is no sibilance.
I told him that sibilance is not a speech defect or recording fault, it is noise added by the replay system.
He didn't say that sounds too clinical.