It’s about time we had another cable thread.

[Martyn Miles]

‘It’s about time we had another cable thread’

I think not...

 

[YNWOAN]

Not this one anyway.

 

[Ayya Khema]

And you are bias-free??

Nic P

nobody is
hence to test cables, i only trust blind tests
and so far my blind test comparin 8 ic costing from 1$ to 600$ all sounded the same in ab test

and no controlled blind test have ever demonstrated any audible differences

ps: i still kept my 600$ ic in my main system. i like the look of it but im not gonna say it widens my soundstage and oh my gawd the bass went from soft to tight

 

[Nic P]

For me the revelation about cables came after a friend bought a high end pair of speaker cables for his system. He let me try the and they totally wrecked the sound of my system. I have found cables that work well in my system, all bought off eBay for sensible money. Would never pay big money for cables. Personally I have tried blind listening tests and I hate them, I get listening fatigue very quickly and cannot tell any differences reliably.

Nic P

 

[Julf]

Personally I have tried blind listening tests and I hate them, I get listening fatigue very quickly and cannot tell any differences reliably.

So what method do you use to avoid the effects of confirmation bias?

 

[deserter]

What took you so long? I VERY strongly disagree with you and have comprehensively proved you very wrong on this several times before, so unless you wish to go back to a circular argument, in which I tell you that you are wrong in every post, I suggest we leave it at that...

I know it’s unfashionable to rely on one’s ears; and I’m not technical enough to really get involved in this discussion ; and I haven’t done a blind listening test as I live alone and have nobody to blindfold me; bit in the case of my Dynavector L300/HX100 there is not a fraction of doubt that balanced is superior to unbalanced ( Mogami unbalanced interconnects). It is blindingly and massively obvious. I don’t know if that proves anything but I thought I’d chuck it in......

 

[Nic P]

So what method do you use to avoid the effects of confirmation bias?

I listen to the new piece of equipment or cable for a week and then swap back for a week, and then swap back again and decide if there is any improvement, and if there is whether it is worth the investment.

Nic P

 

[Julf]

I listen to the new piece of equipment or cable for a week and then swap back for a week, and then swap back again and decide if there is any improvement, and if there is whether it is worth the investment.

How does that avoid being affected by confirmation bias?

 

[Nic P]

How does that avoid being affected by confirmation bias?

It works well for me. There is in my (expert*) opinion no way of avoiding any expectation bias. I don't want new equipment to sound better, I am just deciding on how to spend my money to give me more listening pleasure. New equipment frequently fails my test, so this supports my view that my subjective test method may be flawed but not by expectation bias. Blind tests based on shortish test passages of music are I think very flawed. There are many other flaws I cannot be bothered to repeat.

Nic P

* For about 10 years I was used as a reviewer of experimentally-based academic papers in ICT (Information and Communications Technology). Sadly I had to reject about 90% of papers because they were based on flawed experiments, or flawed data analysis. Of the successful 10% most had to make revisions to meet the requirements of a sound scientific method.

 

[Julf]

There is in my (expert) opinion no way of avoiding any expectation bias.

Double blind tests are used for that specific purpose in many fields, not only in audio.

I don't want new equipment to sound better, I am just deciding on how to spend my money to give me more listening pleasure. New equipment frequently fails my test, so this supports my view that my subjective test method may be flawed but not by expectation bias.

Unfortunately your method totally fails to account for the possibility that there actually isn't any difference, but your expectation is that there is one.

Blind tests based on shortish test passages of music are I think very flawed.

Nothing limits the length of the tests or the choice of material in double blind testing.

 

[Nic P]

Double blind tests are used for that specific purpose in many fields, not only in audio.



Unfortunately your method totally fails to account for the possibility that there actually isn't any difference, but your expectation is that there is one.



Nothing limits the length of the tests or the choice of material in double blind testing.

If I had a pound for every idiot who said that double blind tests have been used so my results are valid I would be a rich man. Design of valid experiments and design of the analysis of the data from experiments is VERY complex. It wasn't taught in University courses and I suspect still isn't. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. If you have studied the subject in detail for many years I apologise.

Have you ever seen a double blind test with more than 10 minute test passages? Of course not, it isn't practical.

As an aside I had a close friend who reviewed medical experimental papers, and she said "I dream of passing 10% of papers". From the number of rubbish reports of health scares in the press I suspect that medical papers are now very badly reviewed.

Nic P

 

[Julf]

Have you ever seen a double blind test with more than 10 minute test passages? Of course not, it isn't practical.

Yes, I have seen many. My best example is the number of upsampled "hi res" albums off several on-line shops, where a lot of people reported the "hi res" versions sounding "soo much better than plain CD", until people doing spectral analysis showed there was no difference.

 

[Nic P]

Yes, I have seen many. My best example is the number of upsampled "hi res" albums off several on-line shops, where a lot of people reported the "hi res" versions sounding "soo much better than plain CD", until people doing spectral analysis showed there was no difference.

Best we just agree to disagree.

Nic P

 

[Yank]

Double blind tests are used for that specific purpose in many fields, not only in audio.

And yet few if any in other fields are conducted in a way that resembles double-blind ABX testing in audio.

"Here, take this drug. Now, take this placebo. Now, take this unidentified pill, and tell us if it's the drug or the placebo."

 

[Ayya Khema]

the last resource for cable believers: to dismiss blind test.

go right ahead and believe that you are unbiased when it comes to hearing differences between cables. who cares?

this was my unscientific test:
DAC is Schiit yggdrasil. it has two separate outputs so I get to connect two different IC's into my headphone amp, the Pro Ican which has 3 inputs. by the turn of a switch, I can A-B test, so in half a second, I can switch between cable A and cable B.
forum image hosting

Honestly, im scratching my head here.

I have 6 interconnects here, ranging from 500$ to 100$ retail value.
Cardas quadlink 200$
Cardas neutral ref 300$
Audioquest Water 500$
Analysis plus one oval 100$
Kimber hero 100$
MIT2 100$
forum image hosting

I cannot distinguish any of them accurately.

they sound so close to each other that its a bit ridiculous to try to describe the difference.


I will try harder for a couple of weeks, but right now, I have to really try to hear differences and I dont. they basically sound exactly the same. bit dissapointing.


just for fun, ill throw in couple of 1$ IC's and see if they also sound exactly like the high ends one, I bet most will.

 

[S-Man]

I will try harder for a couple of weeks, but right now, I have to really try to hear differences and I dont. they basically sound exactly the same. bit dissapointing.
.

Trying harder is the wrong method IMO. I couldn't care less which cables in my collection I use but over a long period of time I always gravitate back to the same ones - mains, phono and speaker cables.

and see if they also sound exactly like the high ends one, I bet most will.

That's expectation bias!

 

[Ayya Khema]

Trying harder is the wrong method IMO. I couldn't care less which cables in my collection I use but over a long period of time I always gravitate back to the same ones - mains, phono and speaker cables.


That's expectation bias!

trying to hear a difference is already telling me that any differences are so minimal as to being irrelevant.

how you gravitate back to cable a or b over a long period of time proves nothing

 

[Whaleblue]

Best we just agree to disagree.

Nic P

What!!!

 

[Julf]

And yet few if any in other fields are conducted in a way that resembles double-blind ABX testing in audio.

"Here, take this drug. Now, take this placebo. Now, take this unidentified pill, and tell us if it's the drug or the placebo."

Actually blind testing, very much like ABX, is used all the time in consumer preference testing.

 

[Yank]

the last resource for cable believers: to dismiss blind test.

go right ahead and believe that you are unbiased when it comes to hearing differences between cables. who cares?

this was my unscientific test:
DAC is Schiit yggdrasil. it has two separate outputs so I get to connect two different IC's into my headphone amp, the Pro Ican which has 3 inputs. by the turn of a switch, I can A-B test, so in half a second, I can switch between cable A and cable B.
forum image hosting

Honestly, im scratching my head here.

I have 6 interconnects here, ranging from 500$ to 100$ retail value.
Cardas quadlink 200$
Cardas neutral ref 300$
Audioquest Water 500$
Analysis plus one oval 100$
Kimber hero 100$
MIT2 100$
forum image hosting

I cannot distinguish any of them accurately.

they sound so close to each other that its a bit ridiculous to try to describe the difference.


I will try harder for a couple of weeks, but right now, I have to really try to hear differences and I dont. they basically sound exactly the same. bit dissapointing.


just for fun, ill throw in couple of 1$ IC's and see if they also sound exactly like the high ends one, I bet most will.

This sort of interconnect comparison is unlikely to result in an audible difference, since the switching on your headphone amp most likely only switches between the hot leads of each input. So the ground paths of both will be in parallel all the time, rendering the test invalid.