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It’s about time we had another cable thread.

I liked the part where they used test gear to characterise cables and computer programs to model and design based upon their findings. Heh :)


Opens with confusion, waffles, waffles some more. A devoid of content exercise in specnobabble. The layperson should steer very well clear of this kind of tripe.

To take this a bit further and a bit off topic, something that bugs me as an electronic engineer involved in the design of hi fi equipment, and as a OMB manufacturer, is that companies are kind of "required" to build things to the spec which the layperson who's read too many hi fi mags etc imagines to be important, rather than to the specs which actually are important!!

ie huge gold plated speaker connectors which could easily cope with literal welding currents are considered important by the layperson when in fact something ok for 10 Amps is fine.

All sockets are required to be gold plated whether or not it makes a difference (it can to long term reliability, slightly, but that's all).

An expensive to make external PSU is "required" whether or not a wallwart is more than adequate for a specific job

Other power supplies are often made vastly bigger, heavier and more expensive than needed cos it looks impressive and "feel the weight of that!".

A non captive mains lead is "required", to satisfy those who think mains cables make a difference.

Tone controls (very useful to many) must be eschewed because the layperson won't believe they can be transparent enough.

Amps must be 100WPC even if you never go beyond number 2 on the vol control cos the layperson thinks more power always equals more control and ease to the sound.

External PSU's must be provided even for equipment that is not in any way compromised by having the PSU internal... cos the layperson thinks external ones are always better (yes sensitive high gain things like a phono stage are better with an external supply but many other items are not).

just a few examples there... (yes there are a small number of ifs and buts to that list above which I am well aware of)

Much of this is of course the fault of certain manufacturers who exploit the lack of technical knowledge of the layperson in order to increase profits... They will eg make a new CD player which is the same as the last one they made but which puts the power supply in a separate box, needlessly, and then market it as a two box CD player which for the sake of an extra metal box and an extra umbilical power connector is now £800 more than the last model!! The problem is laypeople then think a two box CD player is technically superior and worth twice as much money, so woe betide you if you offer an expensive player in one box... it just can't be any good to said layperson...

A good example is a Roksan Attessa 3 box CD player I have in for repair at the moment.... The PSU for the DAC is maybe 10 times or more heavy duty than required.... but then puts its power out via a pair of 20p 1 Amp voltage regulators! The DAC is a virtually empty box and there is plenty of room inside the main transport for it all to fit in there without any compromise... Try selling it for £8000 (or whatever... something like that originally IIRC) if it was all in one box! But no, to the layperson it's twice as good, and worth three times as much just cos it is indeed split into three boxes.

To me the most bizarre thing is the way that once conned into believing all this techno bollox, people are offended by any attempt to disabuse them of such false notions... it's like they WANT to be bullshitted to and conned with false techno babble. Maybe there are marketing people reading this and thinking "FFS doesn't he get that this is how things work and that it's our job to make things thus? You have to play the game old boy.." but it will always seem bizarre to me and be a current I perpetually row against:)
 
I don't think Belden 'Iconoclast' has been launched yet - or has it?

The reason I mention this is because the whole article/thread linked to in the original post is about the new cable made by Belden - called ‘Iconoclast’. Unlike most audio cable manufacturers Belden have a genuine history of making cables for every possible use. Whilst they have previously made some ‘audio’ grade mains cable all their signal cables have been pretty prosaic. However, the Iconoclast range is aimed at the ‘audiophile high-end’ and consists of an RCA cable, a slightly different balanced version and a speaker cable. I can’t seem to find much detail regarding cost but the speaker cable appears to be pretty expensive.
 
Plugs and sockets are another thing that makes zero difference under any conditions
Why unbalanced? Completely unnecessary for domestic audio and just generally adds complication and parts to the signal path.


Do you ride a 1940's bike in the belief that it is good enough ?

In the 1940's we did not have wi-fi routers, mobile phones,switch mode power supplies,LED lighting with dimmers and all that jazz floating around our living rooms.

I also have 14 transformers in my audio system coupled with 20 M of loose mains cable.

So maybe I fit within the '' long cable runs and noisy studio environments'' mantra which is used as an excuse to preclude the use of balanced XLR connections ?

Balanced XLR gives me peace of mind, all of my system is built with fully balanced designs and THD figures in the 0.00012 % region.

I also have a balanced mains transformer feeding it all.

Sounds good to me through my naked Quad ESL's with supertweeter and sub.

Other peoples mileage may vary.
 
But RCA Phono plugs are much smaller so we can fit hundreds of them on the back of A/V receivers.

Imagine having a conversation about the superiority of a car designed in the 1940's.

XLR for me - end of.

But the XLR is from the 1940s too...
 
When making cables, or the few times I've replaced binding posts on amps and speakers I try to use low mass and to match the conductor metal (copper), It's always seemed to make more sense to my laypersons mind than using big lumps of brass, and I always avoid big brand names (have you seen how much WBT and Eichmann charge for such things!).
 
Do you ride a 1940's bike in the belief that it is good enough ?

Unbalanced is better than balanced in most cases. End of. It's an excellent example of exactly the type of con I was going on about above. Make people believe balanced is inherently better then use it as an excuse to charge 50% more cos it's balanced when the extra electronics only cost 5% more.... and usually consist of putting the signal through an extra 3 op amps at each end...
 
When making cables, or the few times I've replaced binding posts on amps and speakers I try to use low mass and to match the conductor metal (copper), It's always seemed to make more sense to my laypersons mind than using big lumps of brass, and I always avoid big brand names (have you seen how much WBT and Eichmann charge for such things!).

I have indeed and they make precisely zero difference to the sound.
 
Unless this was written by all who us
To take this a bit further and a bit off topic, something that bugs me as an electronic engineer involved in the design of hi fi equipment, and as a OMB manufacturer, is that companies are kind of "required" to build things to the spec which the layperson who's read too many hi fi mags etc imagines to be important, rather than to the specs which actually are important!!

ie huge gold plated speaker connectors which could easily cope with literal welding currents are considered important by the layperson when in fact something ok for 10 Amps is fine.

All sockets are required to be gold plated whether or not it makes a difference (it can to long term reliability, slightly, but that's all).

An expensive to make external PSU is "required" whether or not a wallwart is more than adequate for a specific job

Other power supplies are often made vastly bigger, heavier and more expensive than needed cos it looks impressive and "feel the weight of that!".

A non captive mains lead is "required", to satisfy those who think mains cables make a difference.

Tone controls (very useful to many) must be eschewed because the layperson won't believe they can be transparent enough.

Amps must be 100WPC even if you never go beyond number 2 on the vol control cos the layperson thinks more power always equals more control and ease to the sound.

External PSU's must be provided even for equipment that is not in any way compromised by having the PSU internal... cos the layperson thinks external ones are always better (yes sensitive high gain things like a phono stage are better with an external supply but many other items are not).

just a few examples there... (yes there are a small number of ifs and buts to that list above which I am well aware of)

Much of this is of course the fault of certain manufacturers who exploit the lack of technical knowledge of the layperson in order to increase profits... They will eg make a new CD player which is the same as the last one they made but which puts the power supply in a separate box, needlessly, and then market it as a two box CD player which for the sake of an extra metal box and an extra umbilical power connector is now £800 more than the last model!! The problem is laypeople then think a two box CD player is technically superior and worth twice as much money, so woe betide you if you offer an expensive player in one box... it just can't be any good to said layperson...

A good example is a Roksan Attessa 3 box CD player I have in for repair at the moment.... The PSU for the DAC is maybe 10 times or more heavy duty than required.... but then puts its power out via a pair of 20p 1 Amp voltage regulators! The DAC is a virtually empty box and there is plenty of room inside the main transport for it all to fit in there without any compromise... Try selling it for £8000 (or whatever... something like that originally IIRC) if it was all in one box! But no, to the layperson it's twice as good, and worth three times as much just cos it is indeed split into three boxes.

To me the most bizarre thing is the way that once conned into believing all this techno bollox, people are offended by any attempt to disabuse them of such false notions... it's like they WANT to be bullshitted to and conned with false techno babble. Maybe there are marketing people reading this and thinking "FFS doesn't he get that this is how things work and that it's our job to make things thus? You have to play the game old boy.." but it will always seem bizarre to me and be a current I perpetually row against:)
I agree with much of this, but you also need to remember that intelligent folk on forums fall for the same bullshit at the opposite end, lots of bollocks is spoken on forums regarding hifi equipment, I know because I have also fallen for it & regretted it, on here BTW, it works for the mass stupid hifi buyer (ie too rich to think straight) but also for the so called informed amongst us.
Some of the shite i have read on this forum from so called engineers is startling, especially when I receive messages requesting confirmation of said bullshit from someone purchasing from or selling to.

You need to have a clear head with hifi, it is easy to go too far at both extremes of the argument, best to sit in the middle & decide for yourself before latching onto the wisdom of the clan or the dizzy selling bull of the manufacturer, hidden beneath this lies honest, well designed gear, same with the forum sell, lots of good advice but none can ever be found on a cable thread & never will be.
 
Balanced Van Damme Microphone cable and Neutric XLR plugs are peanuts, compared to the cost of phono Burndys and magic looms sold by the 'phono' cables brigade.

Artists and studios use miles of the stuff - so it is cheap.
 
Do you ride a 1940's bike in the belief that it is good enough ?

In the 1940's we did not have wi-fi routers, mobile phones,switch mode power supplies,LED lighting with dimmers and all that jazz floating around our living rooms.

I also have 14 transformers in my audio system coupled with 20 M of loose mains cable.

So maybe I fit within the '' long cable runs and noisy studio environments'' mantra which is used as an excuse to preclude the use of balanced XLR connections ?

Balanced XLR gives me peace of mind, all of my system is built with fully balanced designs and THD figures in the 0.00012 % region.

I also have a balanced mains transformer feeding it all.

Sounds good to me through my naked Quad ESL's with supertweeter and sub.

Other peoples mileage may vary.

If you believe any of this improves your enjoyment then that's fine but as an electronic engineer I know it's all a waste of money. Mains issues are non existent with hi fi equipment and I'll happily use a chain of Lidl's best extension cables, one into another if necessary, without hesitation, never mind using a balanced mains transformer! I also use about 15' long unbalanced cheap interconnect cables in one section of the system and there is a silent background even with my Leak Stereo 20 with its 100mV sensitivity.
 
Unbalanced is better than balanced in most cases.

We have had this discussion several times. No reason to rehash it, so I simply note that I disagree very strongly, and have presented the reasons multiple times. I and many others have repeatedly debunked your rationale for claiming unbalanced is better.
 
We have had this discussion several times. No reason to rehash it, so I simply note that I disagree very strongly, and have presented the reasons multiple times. I and many others have repeatedly debunked your rationale for claiming unbalanced is better.

What took you so long?:D I VERY strongly disagree with you and have comprehensively proved you very wrong on this several times before, so unless you wish to go back to a circular argument, in which I tell you that you are wrong in every post, I suggest we leave it at that...
 
Soz, late.

Don’t mind me, I’ll catch up.

39569210162_5ecd44e5b0_n.jpg
 
Personally I prefer DIN to RCA. A better designed connector and reduced potential for connecting things up incorrectly.
 
Personally I prefer DIN to RCA. A better designed connector and reduced potential for connecting things up incorrectly.

The real difference is not the connectors, but the balanced/differential connection that a) provides rejection of common mode noise, and b) helps avoid ground loops. In a domestic environment, the latter is more significant.
 


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