waxkinglyrical
pfm Member
Surely only if you’re using it with a Schiit phono stage and a Shinola turntable…
Is this the best tonearm in the world?
- Thread starter GT
- Start date
Surely only if you’re using it with a Schiit phono stage and a Shinola turntable…
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
No, don't 'underbias', it's definitely better to set bias so the diamond wears equally on both sides. How you establish that level of bias is another question, but it's something to aim for.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Of course, but my comparison was between under and over biasing, not achieving optimal bias. Just my experience with those cart's I've had on various arms over the years, that whereas the uneven wear on the stylus may be undetected, esp. on a fixed headshell, skewing of the canti. is a sure sign after a few hundred hours.
Some years ago, I read of Koetsu owners finding their cantilevers (boron) skewing because of over-biasing. The thought then was that Ks required less bias than other cart's. Why this should be so I've no idea unless it's tied in with low compliance. Although setting bias is a guess and by God affair with most devices, I've found, with m/coils and 12" arms, hardly any anti-skate is needed. Guess it depends on a number of other factors, though I could hear the difference sonically if the bias was a fair way out; before my hearing deteriorated, that is !
Amazing, the complexities of getting vinyl to excel, compared to digital; the higher the equipment spec., the more careful you need to be to exact that last ounce, as it were. Yet still, vinylistas soldier on with this generations old medium; is it the engineering, the process or the sound potential? I'm too old to care but it won't be my digital source which will receive future attention.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
On another thread the current amplification mode of the DV P75 is being discussed. It presents the cartridge with no impedance. Presumably this means that the cartridge coils will damp the cantilever motion less than before, increasing compliance, and therefore reducing drag, bias, and the anti-skate force you should set. By how much? I have no idea, but I think it's quite probable that best average bias is to some small extent compliance-dependent, music-type dependent, PVC formula dependent, rpm-dependent, and so on, not just a function of downforce.
Correct anti-skate is such a movable feast that long term cantilever straightness must be the best measure. This suggests that looking very carefully at your cantilever every 20 or 50 hours of play and adjusting bias accordingly by decreasing amounts is a reliable way of reaching a good setting for a particular cartridge.
When I first fit a cartridge I watch for net deflection during the playback of average music. On my own tone arms this judgement needs to be made both at start and end of side, since the anti-skate mechanism incorporates the means to control the difference as well as the collective amount.
Correct anti-skate is such a movable feast that long term cantilever straightness must be the best measure. This suggests that looking very carefully at your cantilever every 20 or 50 hours of play and adjusting bias accordingly by decreasing amounts is a reliable way of reaching a good setting for a particular cartridge.
When I first fit a cartridge I watch for net deflection during the playback of average music. On my own tone arms this judgement needs to be made both at start and end of side, since the anti-skate mechanism incorporates the means to control the difference as well as the collective amount.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Or increasing? Presumably, a skewed canti. can be brought back into line by over/under shooting the bias. I'd say that 20 to 50 hours wouldn't show much unless your have phenomenally analytical eyesight ! Maybe ally canti's are more difficult to discern? I had two Lyras on my Five over a decade or more and dialled in about 1/3rd of the VTF on the bias control and the canti's were straight after taking the cart's off, so I got the impression that under half VTF is about right for good (boron) coils. Purely personal observation, mind; far too many variables here.
This is a complete guess, but I'd imagine overegging the anti skate to compensate for a skewed cantilever will possibly compress the suspension in one direction or the other, changing the dynamics of the suspension/cantilever relationship?
Tony L
Administrator
To my memory Koetsu’s designer was not a fan of bias at all and didn’t use any which meant those who followed the advice tended to end up with a slightly skewed cantilever and uneven tip-wear. The annoying thing is my own subjective testing tends to lean towards Koetsu’s findings and I do feel most cartridges just sound more dynamic and alive in many respects with no bias at all. I’m not prepared to run like this, but I do go for as little as I can get away with.
My ancient 3009 Series II only has half-g divisions on the bias rod so I dither between 0.5 and 1g for my Nag (which tracks at 1.6g). I’m not sure which I prefer subjectively, but my cantilever is certainly staying straight at 1g. I’m tempted to drop to 0.5g for a few months and see what happens…
This is obviously far less of an issue with MM or MI carts where one replaces the whole assembly once the stylus wears. I’d want to play it far more safe if I ran a Koetsu, Troika or whatever where I’d want to re-tip it retaining the cantilever and suspension.
PS I suspect there is a strong argument for temporarily upping the bias value for 12” singles on arms with an easy dial adjustment. The higher groove speed and greater modulation will certainly impact the math.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Hmmm! Maybe, but can't see how with m/coils. It is, after all, a horizontal aberration. Maybe 'compress' should rather be 'distort' or 'diverge' the internal distances between magnets and armature (is that right?). Like you, a complete guess.
However, it did occur to me once that simply altering the alignment of the stylus to accommodate the skewed canti. (after altering the incorrect bias) might bring the sonics back on song. With a decent protractor, not too difficult.
Well, who'd've thought it? You did, and you've got a point but luckily, 45 rpm singles (or LPs) are, I hope, mostly the province of upmarket special editions or dance band stuff (or whatever).. Nice to have a story behind audio legends/myths; Guess Sugano San knew his own cart's and they are sensitive to over-biasing.
Tony L
Administrator
My age puts me firmly in peak 12” single territory so I have a lot of them. Hundreds. Everything from late-70s Television, Blondie, Joy Division etc through ‘80s synth pop and indie right through to techno and electronica. Many of the best sounding records I own are in this category, plus a fair few ‘80s indie ‘mini-LPs’ are 45rpm, aldo oddities such as PIL’s metal Box and a few audiophile jazz cuts. I always picked 12” over 7” singles due to the better sound quality and often unique extended mixes unavailable on LP. They are actually the reason I picked a Roksan Xerxes over an LP12 when that decision arose as the Linn was a PITA to get to play at 45 unless one wanted to find £hundreds more for a Lingo. Not fit for purpose to my mind at the time. Obviously I wish I knew then what I know now and I’d have bought neither and landed a 301 or 124 for £50 second hand instead!
I’d be interested to know the theoretical percentage increase in bias required for a typically loud and punchy 45rpm 12” single. Anyone any idea?
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
Adjusting Bias on arms like Rega's with plunger type adjuster are unique in that one can adjust the sound during actual LP playback. It's been interesting to hear how adding and subtracting Bias -carefully pulling/pushing the plunger- affects the overall sonic balance in real time aiding the user in finding that sweet spot where nothing seems forced and a left right balance overall is achieved musically, also interesting how innergroove distortion is pretty much nonexistent too as a result of getting this right. ...On my tonearm 0.8g is where I found this balance.
Paul R
pfm Member
A while ago I bought a Technics 'strain gauge' cartridge. Damned if I can find it now. But these potentially work down to DC, you can watch the offset as the cart plays. Would be a really interesting clarification.
Another possible way to measure stylus drag is with an ammeter in the supply to a DC motor.
My intuition is that groove modulation is secondary to groove velocity, so a 12" single at 45rpm needs more anti-skate. How loud it is cut is much less significant. I also expect that coloured vinyl requires more than the black stuff.
To be OT the OMA guy talks about complete record playing systems from the past, turntable, arm, cart, console. One thing the manufacturer of a cost not really an object one such would be to put an optical reader looking at the cantilever, even if the generator itself is MC. This reader could be used to drive a dynamic anti-skate device that ensures the cantilever averages central.
Another possible way to measure stylus drag is with an ammeter in the supply to a DC motor.
My intuition is that groove modulation is secondary to groove velocity, so a 12" single at 45rpm needs more anti-skate. How loud it is cut is much less significant. I also expect that coloured vinyl requires more than the black stuff.
To be OT the OMA guy talks about complete record playing systems from the past, turntable, arm, cart, console. One thing the manufacturer of a cost not really an object one such would be to put an optical reader looking at the cantilever, even if the generator itself is MC. This reader could be used to drive a dynamic anti-skate device that ensures the cantilever averages central.
Tony L
Administrator
Why? Black vinyl is coloured vinyl, the natural state is a translucent milky white as I understand it. The black is a dye. I have questions about truly clear/transparent vinyl, I suspect that may be another type of plastic, but I’m not sure. Whatever modern coloured vinyl doesn’t fill me with fear the way some ‘70s and ‘80s stuff did, I think they have dramatically improved the dye processes. Anyway, here’s a suitable test record:
No.
Black PVC is filled with carbon black - a form of soot - VERY fine carbon particles which are dispersed within the polymer. It is a pigment, NOT a dye. Dyes are disolved, not dispersed, within what they dye. Back when recorded music first appeared, carbon black was commonly called lamp black - soot from oil lamps.
"Pure" PVC can be crystal clear and essentially colourless but exactly how it appears depends on lots of processing conditions, and the grade/molecular weight. In real life, commercial grades usually have at least a slight yellowish or greenish tint when viewed through a decent thickness.
There are countless grades of carbon black and ways to get it dispersed into any polymer, and there-in lies the art. One of THE major world suppliers used to be, probably still is, Cabot - check online.
Coloured clear/transparent records are coloured with dyes.
Opaque coloured records will often have a pigment - which makes them opaque, and a dye which provides the colour, although there are countless coloured pigments available - they, not dyes, are used in paints - amazingly, perhaps, huge numbers, especially yellows, oranges, reds, browns and greens, are different forms of rust - iron oxide - they are an indusrtry in their own rite.
Paul R
pfm Member
Why? Black vinyl is coloured vinyl, the natural state is a translucent milky white as I understand it. The black is a dye. I have questions about truly clear/transparent vinyl, I suspect that may be another type of plastic, but I’m not sure. Whatever modern coloured vinyl doesn’t fill me with fear the way some ‘70s and ‘80s stuff did, I think they have dramatically improved the dye processes. Anyway, here’s a suitable test record:
My understanding was that the stuff that makes it black also reduced friction and as a consequence surface noise. Otherwise why bother making records black? Might be nonsense.
Anyway do you have a spare copy of that record?
NO.
Why/how could adding particles of anything to a homogeneous polymer do that - reduce noise or anything else? Fantasy.
Carbon black was added to make PVC look like shellac - MASSES of info online.
Also, today, almost any filler, such as carbon black, is cheaper than PVC..........................
Tony L
Administrator
I thought it was pure tradition hung over from the 78 era. People expected records to be black, so they mainly were. Even back in the ‘50s RCA went through a period of colour coding some ranges of 7” 45s by genre, and Fantasy jazz albums were often red (I’d love to find one of those, never have).
PS The record on the 124 is Moses Boyd Dark Matter.
LOL at the tone of some of the posts. Keyboard dictators.
Anyway, here's yet another spin: https://www.furnacemfg.com/blog/why-are-vinyl-records-black/
Anyway, here's yet another spin: https://www.furnacemfg.com/blog/why-are-vinyl-records-black/
Unfortunately total BS - I will guarantee that he has not the first clue about surface resistivity, triboelectric charging, high sheer processing to disperse the carbon in PVC, or anything else to do with conductivity or other electrical properties in plastics.
For carbon black to allow conduction in/across PVC, the carbon particles would have to touch, otherwise they would just be conducting particles dispersed in an insulator. What would a record be like if all of the carbon black particles were touching others? They'd be brittle.
This nonsense joins the lunatic "facts" that persist in hifi, that the ID marks on valves are eteched - they are not, they are printed using silver inks, and the outgasssing of plasticised PVC over time - it does not, it cannot - plasticisers, which are what are being talked about, are oily liqiuds and they simply migrate.
I have spent my entire 45 year working life working in industrial R&D - nearly half in plastic manufacture and coatings, and around ten in lamp manufacture, which is identical to valve manufacture beyond thespecific iron-mongery that gets sealed in a bulb (the bulb id the glass envelope, NOT the whole lamp).
But miscellaneous unsupported bits and bobs on the www MUST be correct. Surely?