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Is it time for speed limiters on cars?

miktec said:
Having just looked through the finer points of NCAP methodology in detail and the grading system for cars with Assisted Driving I am really curious how you come to such a bold conclusion.
There is nothing I could find (including individual car reports from the likes of BMW and Tesla) that supports your claim at all - in fact quite the opposite.

If you can cite the actual findings on the NCAP site where you got this information and provide a link I would be most grateful :)
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I CBA finding the links, it was over 3 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about in the car forums at that time when NCAP gave BMW a higher safety score.

Paraphrasing what they said…with the Tesla’s the assisted driving functions were so functional that the driver zones out so has trouble reacting when a driver correction is required (admittedly rarely). With BMW the driver needs to make frequent minor corrections to the steering, this keeps the driver engaged.

There’s no doubt the Tesla system is more functional but it’s not autonomous driving, until we have full autonomous driving we need to maintain driver involvement. There’s no question that drivers prefer the Tesla system but NCAP weren’t looking from that perspective.
 
I seem to recall there was a spike in accidents during Covid which were speed related & there was a disproportionate impact on cyclists (getting hit by cars). Maybe it’s congestion that prevents speed related incidents?

If the end goal is more active travel & fewer cars on the road then the unintended consequences could be severe?
 
Woodface said:
I seem to recall there was a spike in accidents during Covid which were speed related & there was a disproportionate impact on cyclists (getting hit by cars). Maybe it’s congestion that prevents speed related incidents?
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Link? What’s good for one, etc...

Woodface said:
If the end goal is more active travel & fewer cars on the road then the unintended consequences could be severe?
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More and better roads, a proper network of cycle paths and better/affordable public transport should be the end goal. That you are obsessed with ‘active travel’ doesn’t mean everyone has to be, is even physically able to be or that it is the end goal. Choice for everyone is the answer, not yours of removing choice.
 
Of course this will happen, and drivers only have them selves to thank for this, from my experience too many have little or no regard for others using or trying to cross the road, park on pavements, areas with restricted stopping etc. if motorists followed ‘the rules’ and drove with empathy towards others none of this would be coming our way. It is also a good thing to reduce emissions and reduce energy use overall.

as per a previous post, “bring it on” and while we are at it, it should also be possible for ‘authorised persons ‘ to be able to bring vehicles to a halt in a control manner instead of having to chase them through the streets, which is madness.
 
Paul McDonough said:
as per a previous post, “bring it on” and while we are at it, it should also be possible for ‘authorised persons ‘ to be able to bring vehicles to a halt in a control manner instead of having to chase them through the streets, which is madness.
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In theory I agree, a good thing. Until the system gets hacked...
 
clivem2 said:
I CBA finding the links, it was over 3 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about in the car forums at that time when NCAP gave BMW a higher safety score.

Paraphrasing what they said…with the Tesla’s the assisted driving functions were so functional that the driver zones out so has trouble reacting when a driver correction is required (admittedly rarely). With BMW the driver needs to make frequent minor corrections to the steering, this keeps the driver engaged.

There’s no doubt the Tesla system is more functional but it’s not autonomous driving, until we have full autonomous driving we need to maintain driver involvement. There’s no question that drivers prefer the Tesla system but NCAP weren’t looking from that perspective.
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A lot of my understanding of this comes from when I worked in the pilot training industry. In the 1990s a lot of work went on to look at the 'Human Factors' elements in aviation accidents. One thing that came out, among many others, was that increased automation leads to decreased arousal and awareness, which leads to poor reaction times and diminished ability to make good decisions. And that's in highly trained aircrew. So what might happen in a barely-trained car driver?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
A lot of my understanding of this comes from when I worked in the pilot training industry. In the 1990s a lot of work went on to look at the 'Human Factors' elements in aviation accidents. One thing that came out, among many others, was that increased automation leads to decreased arousal and awareness, which leads to poor reaction times and diminished ability to make good decisions. And that's in highly trained aircrew. So what might happen in a barely-trained car driver?
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This aligns with common sense too. Also with my experience of suddenly having to take full control of car when I’ve been chilled with highly functional assisted driving. It’s not possible to be operating at anywhere close to 100% for a several seconds after you’re given full control.
 
clivem2 said:
I CBA finding the links, it was over 3 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about in the car forums at that time when NCAP gave BMW a higher safety score.

Paraphrasing what they said…with the Tesla’s the assisted driving functions were so functional that the driver zones out so has trouble reacting when a driver correction is required (admittedly rarely). With BMW the driver needs to make frequent minor corrections to the steering, this keeps the driver engaged.

There’s no doubt the Tesla system is more functional but it’s not autonomous driving, until we have full autonomous driving we need to maintain driver involvement. There’s no question that drivers prefer the Tesla system but NCAP weren’t looking from that perspective.
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You are confusing two different but crucial aspects -

Fully automated car control is a very different animal to assisted driving - Quite rightly NCAP rate makers highly (like BMW) who provide driver assistance that is robust (including safety backup) and that includes very clear guidance within their user information and also provides a high level of interaction and communication built into the technology itself. Conversely NCAP are highly critical of makers (like Tesla) who create the impression of full automation both in their marketing material and information to the car owner and also fail to provide meaningful interaction and communication within the technology itself.

I have seen very few in this thread who argue for half-baked automation - I am certainly not one of them.
However, what I do argue is that driver assisted vehicles are providing the means for significant improvements in the area of driver performance and thereby, road safety. NCAP are not denying this is their assessments - in fact (in the case of BMW for instance) they are applauding accomplishments in this area where a high level of technological assistive driving intervention is carried out successfully and robustly whilst also maintaining high levels of cooperation with the driver. Within this context, speed limiters provide a very valuable asset the technology can call on when required

https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/safety-campaigns/2020-assisted-driving-tests/whats-new/
 
Joco said:
FWIW, my anecdotal view is; looking at the phone, speed in context with road conditions and tailgating, The 3rd appears endemic, especially with younger drivers and has been getting worse.
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I agree, tailgating is a real problem now. I see it particularly (anecdotal alert) in young women, who seem content to drive 1-2 car lengths behind a van or lorry, often at speed, seemingly unconcerned that the vehicle in front means they have no clue as to what is ahead, and no time to react if something happens. This is what leads me to my thought that people are disengaging from reality, have reduced situational awareness, and are content to let the car protect them from harm - indeed seem unaware of the risk of harm at all. But some on here argue that these same people will modulate their speed for the conditions, rather than let the car run at whatever limit is in play. I'm not convinced they will. I'm not convinced it'll even occur to them.
 
miktec said:
I really thi



You are confusing two different but crucial aspects -

Fully automated car control is a very different animal to assisted driving - Quite rightly NCAP rate makers highly (like BMW) who provide driver assistance that is robust (including safety backup) and that includes very clear guidance within their user information and also provides a high level of interaction and communication built into the technology itself. Conversely NCAP are highly critical of makers (like Tesla) who create the impression of full automation both in their marketing material and information to the car owner and also fail to provide meaningful interaction and communication within the technology itself.

I have seen very few in this thread who argue for half-baked automation - I am certainly not one of them.
However, what I do argue is that driver assisted vehicles are providing the means for significant improvements in the area of driver performance and thereby, road safety. NCAP are not denying this is their assessments - in fact (in the case of BMW for instance) they are applauding accomplishments in this area where a high level of technological assistive driving intervention is carried out successfully and robustly whilst also maintaining high levels of cooperation with the driver. Within this context, speed limiters provide a very valuable asset the technology can call on when required

https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/safety-campaigns/2020-assisted-driving-tests/whats-new/
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Why do you say I'm confusing full automation with assisted driving? I'm not referring to full automation other than to say less than this requires the driver to be alert. No one has fully autonomous driving available and legal on public roads. BMW and Tesla for example are both SAE Level 2.
 
cutting42 said:
You don't "buy" that the biggest contributions to improved safety are car safety and road improvements? What do you think are the biggest contributors then? Increase in driver skill maybe? Please provide some sources and evidence. There is plenty on the rest but I have seen no evidence on driver skills improving.

You try to say I am trying to reduce the points to "just two things", absolutely not, as clivem2 pointed out there are many. You seem rooted to your mantra and you are just ignoring facts. Lets not ignore the fact that we have about the safest roads in the world and to achieve that we have improved all aspects of roads, cars even enforcement but nothing on driver training. If we want to improve more then we pick the most likely to succeed ie the thing not tackled yet.

We have not yet mentioned the highly successful re-education of the public that drink driving is a bad thing. Many of us on here will remember themselves or their parents drinking 3-4 pints and still driving home from the pub. The penalties have always been there but what really made the difference was making it socially unacceptable and educating people it was a terrible idea. That's what I am arguing for not some speeding free for all but to not get distracted with specious legislation unlikely make a difference and continuing to ignore the potentially most impactful element.
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Thank you for proving my point for me.

Either there have been improvements in driving standards (as I claim and your post shows) or there haven't (as you claimed in your opening)
Sorry - but you can't have it both ways ...
 
miktec said:
Thank you for proving my point for me.

Either there have been improvements in driving standards (as I claim and your post shows) or there haven't (as you claimed in your opening)
Sorry - but you can't have it both ways ...
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You can have a reduction in driving standards while also a broader recognition that drink driving is unacceptable. That's a social attitude change, not a change in driving skills or standards. Just because drunk driving causes lower standards in the drunk driver doesn't mean that reduction in drunk driving automatically raises standards in the population more widely.
 
clivem2 said:
Why do you say I'm confusing full automation with assisted driving? I'm not referring to full automation other than to say less than this requires the driver to be alert. No one has fully autonomous driving available and legal on public roads.
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Please read the NCAP explanation in the link I posted already and then come back to this point.
Otherwise this thread will carry on going round in pointless circles until it disappears up it's own proverbial (if it hasn't done already)

Here's the link again:
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/safety-campaigns/2020-assisted-driving-tests/whats-new/
 
miktec said:
Please read the NCAP explanation in the link I posted already and then come back to this point.
Otherwise this thread will carry on going round in pointless circles until it disappears up it's own proverbial (if it hasn't done already)

Here's the link again:
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/safety-campaigns/2020-assisted-driving-tests/whats-new/
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There's nothing in that link that says why you think I'm confusing full automation with assisted driving. It talks about driver engagement and monitoring.

Note that some systems only use physical contact with the steering wheel to check the driver is in some way "online" vs adding camera-based systems that detect the driver's eyes. Level 2 covers quite a broad set of functionality. You may want to review this explanation of the various levels, BMW and Tesla both being Level 2 but quite different in functionality: https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.html
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
You can have a reduction in driving standards while also a broader recognition that drink driving is unacceptable. That's a social attitude change, not a change in driving skills or standards. Just because drunk driving causes lower standards in the drunk driver doesn't mean that reduction in drunk driving automatically raises standards in the population more widely.
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Sorry mate - but I would consider that not driving while shitfaced equates to a definite and very significant improvement in driving standards.

Of course, there are still some who disagree :D
 
Cynical I know and this may have already been mentioned but one reason limiters might never come into play is because far too much money is made catching drivers out!
 
... a bit of jollity in this otherwise exceedingly complex world :


"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"
 
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