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Inspired by Lowther Church demos...modern classy hifi/PA advice sought

I

ian r

401's Nakman
Maybe this should be in Classic?
As a charity fund raiser I plan to play Misere - Allegri and maybe Missa Pape Marcelli in a 100 year old Irish Church ...not sure yet but the Miserere will be Tallis Scholars but their Marcelli Mass on my cd of the 1980 vinyl is a bit weird in the treble...but valve amps do help..

JM Lowther maybe used a Quad 22 - surely not monobloks on the easily blown Lowthers and yet I wonder how loud I need to go?

i plan to use my own kit- i have ESL57's - but no nearby back walls if sited around the nave.
Or small modern Tannoys..611's I think and then some 12 inch Tannoys in 1960 rat cabs...or are good JBL level PA's likely a more reliable way?

i can use one stereo or two monoblokked naim 110's for around 50 watts/channel

or 2x25 watt Valve monobloks - the wireless world design but I only have various chrome bumper naim pre's at present

a rega planet cd, vinyl is too much fhaffing at my age

I hope to offer the intimate sound of hifi than a digital PA type approach few of which catch my attention but letting that amazing Miserere vibe out is the task.

There are few absorbent surfaces apart from people but its a big space might seat a 1000 at a push with 2 side chapels seating say 50 and a big choir and organ loft....but thats at the rear and high...it may suit for such choir pieces but its a big space so would loose intimacy...? The altar space is going to be out of bounds and is a whole wing in itself......that will be behind any front located speakers My audience if lucky will be 50 ish

should I hire or blag standard PA or
stick with Lowthers approach.
Im in ireland now - near Cork but suppose some hifi shop exists there but I havent found it yet so dont know if any hire options exist - for instance of room EQ kit

Any tips on Lowthers approach and modern PA kit as hifi and speaker mounting the sound in gothic Church spaces?
 
If you were doing it in a Lichfield church, I’d let you play with a JBL PA system and hear how good they are at filling a large open space. I’ve played an LP12 through it in some large(ish) venues and the sound has been pretty breathtaking. Big, open, detailed, natural.

Domestic type speakers can sound a bit lost in a very large space such as a church or a ballroom, you hear too much of the venue rather than the sound from the speakers, horn loaded PA cabs direct the sound at the audience.
 
Yeah.... it wont be very personal ...everyone has a set of those but I have never heard JBL just the routine pub and hall setup on those folding stands....i have some JBL's but I gave those to my wife before she....oh well thats another story.. thanks Linnfo ...what sort of power requirements do that type need?
 
You can get some very, very good speakers on folding stands… however I use JBL SR4722x or SR4732x top cabs with SR4718x bass cabs, I’ve used various amps from Crown, Powersoft, MC2 and Lab Gruppen, currently have MC2 and Lab Gruppen amps and use DBX crossovers and compressors. A high end PA amp is capable of producing a very clean and clear sound… it won’t sound like Disco Dave’s Peavy system.
 
Yeah you got it.....disco dave the sonic curse - one step better though than the ludicrous PA's seemingly sold ecumenically to Churches accross the entire planet. Designed by atheists to prevent the litany and homilies from intelligibility....

thats a very full list thanks...i will web search for Cork JBL hire ....i dont mind putting some cash out but at a guess Im seeing 250/night hire fees for a fit amp and jbl's

disco dave's peavey kit....loved it

pS with that power amp maybe choir lofts would be possible....i was checking it out on Sunday and each side chapel has a choir loft above it....quite amazing....a real Monteverdi Vespers space
 
Best of luck, some other very good PA manufactures are KV2, Nexo and RCF, their TT range is excellent, so if you can hire anything like that, I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

Most HIFI speakers depend on some boundary reinforcement, which isn’t there in a large open venue, or rather the boundaries are too far away, you’ll probably get a reverberant mess… however, try it and see, assuming you can do so without incurring cost.
 
Beobloke said:
Ask B&O if they’ll lend you a pair of Beolab 90s!
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Perhaps if I shine a laser into the night sky beolab will see my signal and beam a pair down but i think they might demand too much attention ...Lowther did his demo's behind a curtain with a musician or two as well as the lowthers....but I dont want to lug beolabs into a choir loft ...
 
You definitely need a decent, professional PA system, as advised above. Domestic hifi will sound awful. It's a large volume you're trying to fill, plus the audience 'absorbs' sound. Frankly, unless you're experienced with setting up this kind of system, I'd get a pro in to offer a complete package inc set up and calibration.
 
I used lowthers for many years and still have a couple of pairs.
I remember a guy sat outside saying it sounds like a live band has come on in the large room where we had our audio meet when I turned on my system.

5 watts and 98 db speakers will fill a large room to high sound levels

Where lowthers fall is not the drivers fault, many are implemented in back horns, which in my view start to colour the sound, especially with a bit of volume (a couple of watts !)
Run two way, with a large equally efficient, and well implemented bass driver and a good amplifier they can make probably the most lifelike sounding pa system that you're ever likely to hear.
 
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That amount of space will need a bit of thought with speaker deployment. Audience numbers do make a difference as bodies soak up bass energy, be aware that an empty church sounds very different to a full one.
I take it that it is stone construction with flagstones, but perhaps of more concern are the amount and location of supporting pillars and how big the side chapels are as they will affect the sound in some strange and interesting ways.
The next bit is how loud do you want it to be for your audience, we would look to figure around 70-80db at the back of the audience, much lower and audience noise will take over unless they are very well behaved.

On the plus side old churches usually sound great and don't need vast amounts of power unless you want loads of bass as they are designed to carry the human voice. If we were doing this gig we would probably use a pair of 12inch mains in the chancel with a single 10 or 12 in the side chapels and a set of fills up in the gods. Throw in a couple of subs for a bit of low end support and you are about there.
 
simon g said:
You definitely need a decent, professional PA system, as advised above. Domestic hifi will sound awful. It's a large volume you're trying to fill, plus the audience 'absorbs' sound. Frankly, unless you're experienced with setting up this kind of system, I'd get a pro in to offer a complete package inc set up and calibration.
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Well I will research quotes perhaps but it is aimed at being a small scale charity event....i am happy to subsidise but doubt I will raise a large amount - its just my local parish in rural Ireland with one of those enormous churches...that is however the best heated church I have ever been in....anyway quotes wont harm
 
Thanks Steve and moofi for those very precise views....going back to what linnfomaniac said about horn loading full on firing to the front jobbies....Allegri etc did compose for omnidirectional circumstances and performance ....just musing really

i could locate at the rear firing forward below the choir and organ loft ...or alternatively in front of the cruciform side chapels as the space is big enough...i kinda like the room EQ idea though ...but being Ireland that will be a tad advanced I suspect given the plethora of Disco Dave Peavey set ups ...
 
Someone mentioned bad PAs as fitted in many churches.
The new system in ours is superb, planned in conjunction with a church PA systems specialist.
Two of us knew enough to purchase our own mics. and other accessories.
The result is a system that works in all the major areas perfectly.
The mics. for speech and the singers' vocals are excellent and the keyboard sounds just right.
My background running a modest PA system helped, but I didn't let it dominate our church requirements.
An excellent result all round.
 
Martyn Miles said:
Someone mentioned bad PAs as fitted in many churches.
The new system in ours is superb, planned in conjunction with a church PA systems specialist.
Two of us knew enough to purchase our own mics. and other accessories.
The result is a system that works in all the major areas perfectly.
The mics. for speech and the singers' vocals are excellent and the keyboard sounds just right.
My background running a modest PA system helped, but I didn't let it dominate our church requirements.
An excellent result all round.
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Hi Martyn
i changed churches because of the completely inaudible homilies via the usual excess of speakers around the church setting up multiple conflicting echoes.i have never heard such bad PA's in my life....this is with the church 1/3 to 1/4 full but dispersed at covid paranoid levels ...i think a single speaker firing down the aisle would be better than these systems.

i suspect the same company has done every relevant church in the diocese's as those thin column speakers in the same position are everywhere....they work better when the place is heaving but thats only at big funerals and Christmass nowadays
 
Don't get me started on those column speakers, these are often used due to planning restrictions or in church terms facilities. Speakers must blend in with the building and often coloured to match the stonework. Even worse we usually find pairs facing each other on every pillar, which makes speech completely unintelligible. I understand the thinking, but to do this well takes a lot of sound processing and suitable delay curves being used, which never are.

A pair firing down the length can work well, if you can get them high enough, otherwise the front rows will be blasted with very high spl's to reach the back. A hung array can work well, but a row of pillars will mean the need for additional speakers and that also means cost which many churches cannot or will not pay for.
 
No lovely Gothic stone pillars in play - perhaps one day when the place is empty i can 'rearrange' the wiring on every second speaker by introducing 'acoustic spark delay relays' with a pair of wire cutters....definitely no blasting will be allowed by me but I had hoped to avoid Daves disco Peavey columns....perhaps some ecclesiastical thin cloth can be hung over or in front....i was hoping to avoid a big black tech scenario, but tis a fallen world so via this thread Im learning to be less precious....

now those old 3 faced AR monitors from the 70's - they were less tech looking ...but not really PA...in spite of the publicity shots at the Royal Opera
 
linnfomaniac83 said:
You can get some very, very good speakers on folding stands… however I use JBL SR4722x or SR4732x top cabs with SR4718x bass cabs, it won’t sound like Disco Dave’s Peavy system.
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I doubt we had this in mind when discussing disco dave's..peavey kit - amongst other items. Seems like he is a collector
 
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