"Indeed"

[Finnegan]

Scots Gaelic and Irish are really two dialects of the same language

Wow! Highly contentious and could get you into a lot of trouble. The ethno-linguist Max Weinreich infamously observed that a language was a dialect with an army and navy. The Scandinavian languages of Denmark, Norway and Sweden have a high level of mutual intelligibility yet are regarded as distinct languages. Language is frequently defined politically as much as linguistically.

Similarly, Latin languages such as Spanish and Italian are very similar, although their mutual intelligibility is what linguists term ‘asymmetric,’ i.e. the speakers of one language understand more of the opposite language than speakers of the opposite language understand of theirs. In this case it is easier for an Italian to understand Spanish than a Spaniard to understand Italian.

 

[Mike Reed]

As a Scandinavian. We lent you the word Window in the Viking age. Now we want it back.

Now that's a pane; did they come with glass?

I think it was the Norwegians who painted large bar-codes to the prows of their naval fleet. Seems that it made it easier for port authorities to Scandinavian.

 

[Mike Reed]

Similarly, Latin languages such as Spanish and Italian are very similar, although their mutual intelligibility is what linguists term ‘asymmetric,’ i.e. the speakers of one language understand more of the opposite language than speakers of the opposite language understand of theirs. In this case it is easier for an Italian to understand Spanish than a Spaniard to understand Italian.

Yes, I've been told that by natives of each country, but can never remember which language is easier for which inhabitants. I wonder if the same is true of Romanian, which is the closest language to original Latin, I'm told. The origin of this is clear, inasmuch as there were many Roman military settlements at the fall of Rome in the 5th century (?) and unlike in other occupied countries, the intermarriage with locals had been widespread over the centuries.

From memory, I thought there was a bit of Cyrillic in their language, as in Bulgaria, so not sure of the veracity of this.

 

[Finnegan]

I wonder if the same is true of Romanian, which is the closest language to original Latin, I'm told.

In its written form it has similarities with French, although I believe that French speakers wouldn’t understand much spoken Romanian.

It’s a fascinating topic. Catalan is more easily understood by Italian speakers than by Spanish, and has similarities to the French Occitan language. Dutch and German appear superficially similar although, aside from speakers of an obscure Dutch dialect, there is no mutual intelligibility between the languages.

I lived in the Netherlands for a while when I was younger. It was almost impossible to pick up Dutch. Firstly it’s a difficult language to learn, but more so because most Dutch speak impeccable English, and will (infuriatingly) answer any clumsy attempts at rudimentary Dutch in perfect English. However, after a while, getting into the rhythm of listening to spoken Dutch, it’s actually remarkably similar to English- even if almost impossible for English speakers to speak.

 

[Mick P]

In its written form it has similarities with French, although I believe that French speakers wouldn’t understand much spoken Romanian.

It’s a fascinating topic. Catalan is more easily understood by Italian speakers than by Spanish, and has similarities to the French Occitan language. Dutch and German appear superficially similar although, aside from speakers of an obscure Dutch dialect, there is no mutual intelligibility between the languages.

I lived in the Netherlands for a while when I was younger. It was almost impossible to pick up Dutch. Firstly it’s a difficult language to learn, but more so because most Dutch speak impeccable English, and will (infuriatingly) answer any clumsy attempts at rudimentary Dutch in perfect English. However, after a while, getting into the rhythm of listening to spoken Dutch, it’s actually remarkably similar to English- even if almost impossible for English speakers to speak.

I prefer to speak English no matter where I am in the world. Every airport in the world has signs in English and seems to have overtaken French as the diplomatic language.

I know someone will criticise this, but to be honest my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

[Mike Reed]

Dutch and German appear superficially similar although, aside from speakers of an obscure Dutch dialect, there is no mutual intelligibility between the languages.

Very interesting; I did wonder.

.....but more so because most Dutch speak impeccable English,

Yes, amazing when there's neither the reciprocity between English and the Dutch but also because no other close nations have this 'anglophile' linguistic ability, except possibly Scandinavians, from where I had no students at all, except 1 Norwegian (and 1 from Finland, ( though not Scandinavia, of course) Think I had many students from just about every other European country + worldwide.

 

[Mike Reed]

but to be honest my dear, I don't give a damn.

Be gone with your wind, Mick. I thought it was 'frankly', though.

 

[Finnegan]

I prefer to speak English no matter where I am in the world. Every airport in the world has signs in English and seems to have overtaken French as the diplomatic language.

I know someone will criticise this, but to be honest my dear, I don't give a damn.

Mick, we simply don’t know where we are with you nowadays. Where once you were anxious to expound the values of Gordon Gecko and Thatcherism at every opportunity, for the last wee while you appeared to overflow with the milk of human kindness. Now, the cantankerous old sod is beginning to reassert himself.

Which is it Mick? I can take the Tory rancour, but not the inconsistency.

PS, do you speak a second language (other than Thatcherism that is?)

 

[Mike Reed]

Mick, we simply don’t know where we are with you nowadays.

I think the answer lies in the motorbike; it's kick-stated a new vision. Funny how Maggie was marmite, as she created more upsides than downsides in Britain and its economy. Despite my vociferous criticisms of increased costs preparing for privatisations and double council tax on a holiday let in Wales, she changed much to the good. At least her war was just, as opposed to that other similarly competent and long-term labour P.M. who picked up from the 'grey man'. The effects of that belatedly unjustified was are still being felt.

 

[Mick P]

Mick, we simply don’t know where we are with you nowadays. Where once you were anxious to expound the values of Gordon Gecko and Thatcherism at every opportunity, for the last wee while you appeared to overflow with the milk of human kindness. Now, the cantankerous old sod is beginning to reassert himself.

Which is it Mick? I can take the Tory rancour, but not the inconsistency.

PS, do you speak a second language (other than Thatcherism that is?)

It makes sense for the world to speak one Language.

We speak English, as does the USA, Canada, most of India, quite a lot of Europeans, Australia, NZ, Zambia, Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Jamaica, Tanzania, Nigeria, Dominica, Antigua, Malta and loads more. Therefore it has got to be the contender for a single language.

I speak limited French (I worked in Paris for a while and was put on a course) plus a smattering of Spanish.

Even Gordon Gecko and Thatcherism had some kindness.

 

[miktec]

I lived in the Netherlands for a while when I was younger. It was almost impossible to pick up Dutch. Firstly it’s a difficult language to learn, but more so because most Dutch speak impeccable English, and will (infuriatingly) answer any clumsy attempts at rudimentary Dutch in perfect English. However, after a while, getting into the rhythm of listening to spoken Dutch, it’s actually remarkably similar to English- even if almost impossible for English speakers to speak.

I also lived in the Netherlands for a while - from the early 70s through to the mid 80s
I spent the first couple of years acquiring Dutch and went on to perfect a competent fluency. I guess I had one advantage of working for agencies initially and thus rubbing shoulders with a fair few Dutch who either couldn’t speak English or couldn’t be bothered to.
Once I had fluency I surprised many Dutch people who mostly assumed that the English couldn’t be arsed to do languages
I think it may have helped that I am a Northerner who has also spent time in Scotland. This helped with the horrendous inflections needed for Scheveningen (for instance)

 

[Mick P]

I also lived in the Netherlands for a while - from the early 70s through to the mid 80s
I spent the first couple of years acquiring Dutch and went on to perfect a competent fluency. I guess I had one advantage of working for agencies initially and thus rubbing shoulders with a fair few Dutch who either couldn’t speak English or couldn’t be bothered to.
Once I had fluency I surprised many Dutch people who mostly assumed that the English couldn’t be arsed to do languages
I think it may have helped that I am a Northerner who has also spent time in Scotland. This helped with the horrendous inflections needed for Scheveningen (for instance)

I find that when I am out Spain the locals want to learn English, French and German because they think this is where the future lies. They drop mega hints for us to keep speaking in English because it helps them learn the language. I am happy to oblige.

 

[Finnegan]

Even Gordon Gecko and Thatcherism had some kindness.

With significant reluctance, I have to corroborate this. My ex brother in law was a well connected political journalist. He confirms that Thatcher was indeed capable of personal acts of kindness. He related the anecdote about her returning to Downing St. one evening to find some workman still engaged in some maintenance work. She immediately rolled up her sleeves and began to cook them some supper.

Aren‘t we a funny old lot? We can kindly prepare supper for some workmen while torpedoing the Belgrano and destroying whole mining communities.

 

[George J]

Being half Norwegian on my mother's side, I grew up for the first couple of years learning to talk exclusively in Norwegian. Norwegian mew-mew!

But my father banned it, and so we became an exclusively English speaking household [reasonably enough in Herefordshire]. As a young child I visited my Norwegian grandparents many times, and years later I did again till 2000 when both had died. Since then I have almost completely lost my Norwegian. Use it or lose it! I do practice on YouTube films from the National Bibliotek which are always in Norwegian, and generally very nicely spoken, rather than rushed.

I can still tell written Norwegian, Swedish and Danish apart, and readily recognise the inflections of each nation when listening to them speak English, which they do very well on the whole. In Norway I would always start in Norwegian, and I passed for looking typically Norwegian, but the smiles soon broke out and we carried on in English. Norwegians love to practice English on real native English speakers! Strangely I had perfect Norwegian pronunciation of the standard sort for Oslo and the Ostfold, where my grandparents lived.

Best wishes from George

 

[Mike Reed]

It makes sense for the world to speak one Language.

Not sure why this different tack, Mick, but it does make sense to have English as a globally understood language but to only have one? Not a snowball's chance! The British Empire and Commonwealth were the reasons. Spanish was supposed to be the language of finance. I could never understand this but maybe it was a very long time ago.

most of India,

Not sure about that one; I thing most of the rural population at least speak in Hindi or other languages

I'm very lucky that English is the go-to language to learn and most of my students have found it to be a relatively simple one to pick up; maybe apart from the erratic pronunciations. Being an EFL teacher for so long taught me more about the structure of English than I'd ever have learnt elsewhere. I used to tell my upper level students that their use of English was probably superior to a vast swathe of our native-born population

 

[KrisW]

Wow! Highly contentious and could get you into a lot of trouble. The ethno-linguist Max Weinreich infamously observed that a language was a dialect with an army and navy. The Scandinavian languages of Denmark, Norway and Sweden have a high level of mutual intelligibility yet are regarded as distinct languages. Language is frequently defined politically as much as linguistically.

Similarly, Latin languages such as Spanish and Italian are very similar, although their mutual intelligibility is what linguists term ‘asymmetric,’ i.e. the speakers of one language understand more of the opposite language than speakers of the opposite language understand of theirs. In this case it is easier for an Italian to understand Spanish than a Spaniard to understand Italian.

Scots Gaelic and Irish are extremely close languages, though, with higher mutual intelligibilty than, say Lowland Scots has with the English spoken in England. Irish-language TV programmes sometimes have Scottish guests who engage in the discussion speaking their own language.

But yes, I should have said "almost" rather than "really".

The Dutch are notorious for not letting foreigners speak their language. It's politeness mainly, and a willingness to keep their English up to date. My wife's aunt (an Irishwoman who spoke Dutch) lived in Amsterdam for twenty years before the florist she visited every week would answer her Dutch with Dutch..

 

[eisenach]

In its written form it has similarities with French, although I believe that French speakers wouldn’t understand much spoken Romanian.

It’s a fascinating topic. Catalan is more easily understood by Italian speakers than by Spanish, and has similarities to the French Occitan language. Dutch and German appear superficially similar although, aside from speakers of an obscure Dutch dialect, there is no mutual intelligibility between the languages.

I lived in the Netherlands for a while when I was younger. It was almost impossible to pick up Dutch. Firstly it’s a difficult language to learn, but more so because most Dutch speak impeccable English, and will (infuriatingly) answer any clumsy attempts at rudimentary Dutch in perfect English. However, after a while, getting into the rhythm of listening to spoken Dutch, it’s actually remarkably similar to English- even if almost impossible for English speakers to speak.

Being able to communicate in French and German, I find that when in the Netherlands, I can make sense of much the written language with a bit of creative phonic interpretation of spellings revealing a hidden German word. e.g. Rijk - Reich, enough to be able to understand the international news in a newspaper. In a domestic setting, listening to spoken Dutch, I pick up the odd word, and get the vague drift of the conversation.

For the last few years, my youngest has been living in Barcelona. Again, French helps me understand written Catalan. Written Spanish is much more difficult. The trouble in Barcelona generally is that you're never sure whether you're reading/heading Catalan or Spanish !

 

[stevec67]

Bealach in Irish too (Scots Gaelic and Irish are really two dialects of the same language), means a mountain pass, but also a channel in the maritime and radio senses.

I had a hunt and wilderness seems to be a good source of common words : afon /abhainn ("auw-en"), craig / carraig. Even cym has coim in Irish, but gleann (rhymes with "clown") is the more common word for a valley, although, regarding the long-running soap opera, the Welsh pobol is pobail in Irish with the same meanings.

But a lot of the everyday words are wildly different today, like: gwr / fear (= man), but there's actually a relationship if you unpick a thousand years of change, find the common ancestor word then go back up the other branch: for instance, the gw- words in Welsh end up starting with F in Irish. It's actually a pretty song linguistic link between the two languages, but it's one that makes the two languages sound completely different today.

To complete the family of the living Celtic languages, Breton and Cornish are on the Welsh side; Manx belongs to the Irish and Scottish branch.

@RJohan there are* so many Norse words in English, but I particularly like how a Nordic woman (kvinna) becomes a queen in English. It's that mystique of being foreign, I suppose...

(*that was one!)

As you say countryside and place names tie up Welsh, Gaelic and OE. I found it on maps when mountaineer ing. Crag, craig, creagh clearly share origins, as does "pen" for head. Maybe Ben ( as in Nevis) is the same as Pen y Ghent and Pen y Fan. Mhor, mawr, mor all mean "big". Then there are the ones that ought to match but don't. Red is dearg in Scots/Irish but coch (or goch) in Welsh. No link there.

 

[Finnegan]

As you say countryside and place names tie up Welsh, Gaelic and OE. I found it on maps when mountaineer ing. Crag, craig, creagh clearly share origins, as does "pen" for head. Maybe Ben ( as in Nevis) is the same as Pen y Ghent and Pen y Fan. Mhor, mawr, mor all mean "big". Then there are the ones that ought to match but don't. Red is dearg in Scots/Irish but coch (or goch) in Welsh. No link there.

What I can’t understand is why there are loughs instead of lakes in Northumberland.

 

[Finnegan]

Scots Gaelic and Irish are extremely close languages, though, with higher mutual intelligibilty than, say Lowland Scots has with the English spoken in England. Irish-language TV programmes sometimes have Scottish guests who engage in the discussion speaking their own language.

But yes, I should have said "almost" rather than "really".

I have a little Gaelic, at a very basic ‘the cat sat on the mat’ level. I sometimes watch the Scots Gaelic BBC Alba. They frequently have Irish and Scottish Gaels on their music programmes conversing more or less fluently with each other. But my point was that language is as political as it is linguistic. Native Scots Gaelic speakers have now fallen to just a few thousand and the language is fast heading towards extinction. There is huge controversy at the moment over the Scottish government‘s decision to slash funding in promoting and learning Gaelic. There are also many who consider Scots as a separate language to English, while others maintain it is simply a dialect. There is no definitive linguistic demarcation between a language and a dialect, hence my point about Scandinavian languages being politically distinct but linguistically very close.