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Improving PC streaming

Hermanh

Member
Hi all,
I'm currently a very happy owner of a PC streaming system with following components:

Pc running JC River Media software with the M-audio Delta 192 Audiophile soundcard.
The SPDIF out from the soundcard connected with a chord Indigo Digital plus to a Naim nDac + psu.
ARsound Lunar Din-Din interconnect to a Naim Supernait + psu.

Would switching the soundcard for a Stello U3 (USB to SPDIF)
bring any further improvement in sound quality?

Any other suggestions would be welcome.

Many thanks for your reply's
 
The SPDIF stage is rather an important missing link between the PC and an nDAC: it's effectively the master clock in the system - or at least it 'drives' the bitstream.

If you really love the sound of your Naim DAC, then it's worth auditioning a few USB-SPDIF converters against the M-Audio before impulsively splashing out on one: there was a HiFi World group test last year containing listening and bench tests that it is probably the helpful source of information available. The Halide Bridge and Audiophilleo topped both tests. However, the Stello and SOtM converters were not included: all are worth a listen - most are available on our free home loan programme, along with optional power supplies and digital cables. It's the only way to be sure!

It's easier to provide a clean electrical environment for an off-board SPDIF device than in the computer on the PCIe bus. They are very sensitive to rail noise.

However, I always recommend thinking carefully about the expenditure on such a device: sometimes it's better to switch to a DAC with a really good direct async USB implementation that doesn't require an SPDIF converter to sound its best.

Happy listening . . .
 
Sell the Supernait or nDac, why have two dacs?
If you are sticking with Naim then the new Dac-V1 should do as it has an async usb input
 
My experience tends to suggest that the job of converting a file to a digital stream that your DAC can decode is a purely mathematical exercise, so the 1s and 0s are going to be either in the right order, or not. the other factor at this end of the sequence of events seems to be noise, either coming along with the stream, or getting into the mains, or radio frequency noise. The rest of your system may be affected by one of these noise sources. As an ex-Naim user I'm reasonably convinced that at least earlier Naim kit was sensitive to noise, possibly on the mains, as I could tell if my Linn Lingo was powered up, even when playing CDs. My mini-mac never sounded brilliant, as it was running off a cheap Chinese SMPSU. So, if your m-audio card is doing its job properly, getting a different one may not make any real difference. The advantage of USB is that it allows the DAC to time the data coming from your PC, but when you convert to SPDIF that advantage is lost.
You may not want to hear this, but my listening tests lead me to the "legendary" MDAC as I felt it sounded better than the Naim NDAC (though I will admits I've not done a back to back comparison under controlled double blind conditions) - though mainly as I could also remove a preamp from the chain.
Elimination of potential noise sources may be worth experimenting with.
 
My experience tends to suggest that the job of converting a file to a digital stream that your DAC can decode is a purely mathematical exercise, so the 1s and 0s are going to be either in the right order, or not. the other factor at this end of the sequence of events seems to be noise, either coming along with the stream, or getting into the mains, or radio frequency noise. The rest of your system may be affected by one of these noise sources. As an ex-Naim user I'm reasonably convinced that at least earlier Naim kit was sensitive to noise, possibly on the mains, as I could tell if my Linn Lingo was powered up, even when playing CDs. My mini-mac never sounded brilliant, as it was running off a cheap Chinese SMPSU. So, if your m-audio card is doing its job properly, getting a different one may not make any real difference. The advantage of USB is that it allows the DAC to time the data coming from your PC, but when you convert to SPDIF that advantage is lost.
You may not want to hear this, but my listening tests lead me to the "legendary" MDAC as I felt it sounded better than the Naim NDAC (though I will admits I've not done a back to back comparison under controlled double blind conditions) - though mainly as I could also remove a preamp from the chain.
Elimination of potential noise sources may be worth experimenting with.

My earlier comment should have addressed this, but I didn't want to cloud the SPDIF conversion issue!

But, Naim's emphasis on power is not misplaced: the computer itself is by far the worst and most powerful distributor of this kind of noise: tackling this at source usually makes a significant improvement quite apart from the SPDIF stage. We measured 500mV ripple on a Mac Mini PSU!!

In fact, the difference - for instance - battery-powering an Audiophilleo SPDIF converter, or using USB isolation via a dual-conduit cable or ground-lifting card, illustrates how sensitive is the first clock alone.

Although async USB is potentially a big step forward (largely because there's only one clock to worry about!), it multiplies the problems of such power contamination. There are good and better solutions, but no magic bullets.
 
I run a hiface from JRiver 18 into my dac. It's an excellent device that works well with my own PC. I think the Hiface 2 is supposed to be even better as it doen't require drivers up to 24/96. Worth a listen.

Del
 
Sell the Supernait or nDac, why have two dacs?
If you are sticking with Naim then the new Dac-V1 should do as it has an async usb input

In my opinion the nDac is much better than the SN dac. The SN/HC is a very good integrated Amp.
Both are very good at what they are intended to do.
I had an XS /nDac combination before. The SN is a nice upgrade from the XS in the Naim range and has the advantange of being a one-box pre/amp solution.
 
My earlier comment should have addressed this, but I didn't want to cloud the SPDIF conversion issue!

But, Naim's emphasis on power is not misplaced: the computer itself is by far the worst and most powerful distributor of this kind of noise: tackling this at source usually makes a significant improvement quite apart from the SPDIF stage. We measured 500mV ripple on a Mac Mini PSU!!

In fact, the difference - for instance - battery-powering an Audiophilleo SPDIF converter, or using USB isolation via a dual-conduit cable or ground-lifting card, illustrates how sensitive is the first clock alone.

Although async USB is potentially a big step forward (largely because there's only one clock to worry about!), it multiplies the problems of such power contamination. There are good and better solutions, but no magic bullets.
You only need a magic bullet to kill a mythical beast.

It is important to recognise the distinct possibility that the Ndac is working perfectly fine, has no problem assigning one of its fixed frequency oscillators to matching the rate as which the M-Audio card is sending data (as it is designed to do), and is unperturbed by any electromagnetic gubbins (perhaps because the M-audio card has been properly designed, or perhaps because the naim dac contains galvanic and optical isolation like the new cheaper one).

If the OP wishes to make a change to the sound of his system, then why not take advantage of computer audio, instead of treating it as a problem, and buy a measuring mic and soundcard (if the current one won't support a measuring mic) and introduce digital room correction which can't be implemented via J river.

The great thing about this is that it addresses a real issue and makes a real difference.
 
The other thing that can't be overlooked is ensuring you have bit-perfect S/PDIF. I've been using RME cards for years as a way of avoiding the Windows Kmixer however I have found with WASAPI on Windows 7 I am no longer enjoying bit perfect playback. I can tell this as my DAC has a HDCD decoder which relies on the least significant bit so is a great indicator of any changes to the bitstream.

I've now reverted to Foobar using an ASIO driver and once again all is good but it reminded me that there are more places for things to go awry with computer based sources.

I use a clock in my DAC with the PC synched to it and it sounds fine. Most studios use PCs or Macs with pro-audio soundcards so I'm not sure I buy the PSU/RFI contamination theory. If the soundcard is well designed it should be fine as a digital output.
 
The only way to be sure is to try.

Fixing problems with the room itself, and optionally dabbling in some correction, will probably make any differences between the M-Audio card and an external SPDIF converter plainer to hear!

Headphones do the same trick.
 
The only way to be sure is to try.

Fixing problems with the room itself, and optionally dabbling in some correction, will probably make any differences between the M-Audio card and an external SPDIF converter plainer to hear!
Run. Run all the way home and don't look back.
 
JRiver 18 has a bit perfect indicator built into the interface.

Whilst I don't doubt it, unless the DAC indicates it's bit perfect you can't be sure. RME assured me that there shouldn't be any issues with the WASAPI interface, however the HDCD indicator told a different story. It may not have been their drivers but something in the software stack was being naughty and corrupting the bitstream.

Before worrying about the S/PDIF hardware it makes sense to ensure the software is sound as that's generally easier and cheaper to change.
 
Run. Run all the way home and don't look back.

Two sides to this argument, make up your own mind. adamdea is a 'bits are bits' flatearther and has probably not tested the impact of USB-SPDIF converters. Be curious, trust your own ears.
 
Before worrying about the S/PDIF hardware it makes sense to ensure the software is sound as that's generally easier and cheaper to change.

I posted the same question on the official Naim forum.
I got a suggestion to try JPLAY to improve PC playback.
I did not know JPLAY and I'll certainly give it a try.
Anyone has any experience with JPLAY?
 
Two sides to this argument, make up your own mind. adamdea is a 'bits are bits' flatearther and has probably not tested the impact of USB-SPDIF converters. Be curious, trust your own ears.
I'm all for curiosity, but applying analog logic to computers does not display intellectual curiosity it's actually straight-jacketed conservatism. You can do so much more with computer audio. Why waste time with imaginary cures for imaginary problems?

So much about the way hifi systems are designed is based on disk based playback by dumb machines and ideas about analog signal preservation. The real question is IMHO about what should be done on the computer and what shouldn't: why one should buy expensive limited circuits in expensive boxes to do things one's computer can already do better.

Lots of people seem up think it's really neat to have a choice of half a dozen filters in a DAC when they have no idea what they are supposed to do, no way of knowing which would be more appropriate in any circumstance. There is no interest in understanding how this might possibly work. But what is to my mind really tragic is that software exists which can be used easily to specify an infinite range of such filters with fewer limitations than can be applied in a dac. And no one seems to be interested. Is that because they are all such curious inquiring minds?

However if your idea of a hobby is listening to boxes that might possibly do something then the USB/ spdif converter is the way forward. Try listening to different serial numbered versions of the same model to see whether they sound different. And different colours.
 
Ok rant over. But honestly, how about spending time to find out all the different things that can be done with plugins in j river? I think that would be rewarding.
 
The answer is because there is a fledgling industry dying to jump into the void created when the HiFi world moved away from analogue into computer-based digital systems rather than CD -based systems which everyone knew sounded different.

Hide-bound conservatism is part of it, but it is also in the nature of what many see as a part and parcel of the hobby, the need to tinker. Any hobby requires and action by its followers, but HiFi is a curiously passive one. After you have accumulated the components, what next? you could sit back and listed to the music, but then the music is the hobby, not the HiFi, so the net result of a hobby which can satisfy far too early in the piece is to add bits, change bits, play with the peripherals, try everything out in the endless quest of a perfection that probably does not exist, but preserves the hobby as a hobby and not just as a tool for music appreciation.

A model train enthusiast does not stop once he or she has a couple of locomotives, some rolling stack and a track. There is an endless array of things to add and change. Similarly a stamp collector doesn't stop having collected stamps from one country, their are rarities, misprints, and stamps that are the envy of every other collector. With HiFi, once you have good speakers, good amplifiers and good sources you can stop and concentrate on what the HiFi does, produce convincing sounding music. However, in an analogue system you can continue with the tinkering side to important to many hobbies by changing cartridges, arms, turntables etc. The need to continue was recognised by the astute in the late seventies hence the growth of the peripheral industry, with accessories of dubious worth such as different interconnects, speaker cables, stands and even fuses.

The CD was the first digital source, and was thanks to Philips and Sony in agreeing to sell their transports to hundreds of manufacturers that digital was initially seen as just another source, less flexible than the turntable in terms of tweaking, but nevertheless allowing upgrades that always sounded different. Besides, interconnects could change the sound of a CD player, plus you could add attenuators (sometimes really necessary, given output voltage fluctuations), have them reclocked, continue with the hifi hobby.

Unfortunately, streaming, computers, network players, separate DACs etc breal the mould. Once you connect a computer to a DAC, assuming you have a bit perfect output, that's about it. Digital cables, especially if you use S/PDIF, are essentially all equal. One DAC in terms of the conversion is the same as another. Issues such as jitter, which has been around since the CD, is no longer a problem. The sad truth is a file on a computer is sent to a DAC by a digital system that effectively cannot by tweaked, unless you apply filters at the software level to modify the sound, which goes against the fundamental principles of HiFi.

However, a hobby cannot just stop. Jigsaws are interesting when you assemble them, but afterwards, what do you do? They're unsatisfying unless you buy another. so it is with the HiFi hobby. The fledgeling industry says you can continue, not only with the analogue side but also with the digital. So, hard drives sound different, SATA cables sound different, you need physically and electrically silent power supplies and so on; in otherwise, the hobby can grow into a whole new area. Forget the objectivists, they kill a couple of the most important parts of the hobby, the need to change, the need to tinker. Once you accept that digital is another analog, and you can take an SSD drive home to try on a 30 day return basis, once you accept that it is your ears that count, then you can relax and have a nice glass of whisky. The hobby isn't dead, after all.

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better to accept that we need to believe the lie for the hobby to continue. Then I think what the f*ck and put a record on.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about software, as long as you are getting bit perfect data to the dac, I would choose software from the perspective of convenience and ease of use.
JRiver offers a pretty good package.
Keith.
 


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