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Illusions - what do we really hear

Nothing in that paper about how a phase anomaly in the reproduction would alter the perception of the real interaction in the duet.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
Seriously? OK, off the top of my head let's take one example. The stereo image is slightly off centre. How is your mic (singular) going to hear that? Or there is a subtle phase anomaly that your ears pick up, making voices in a choir sound "off". Your mic picks that up too?
In many cases I fear human ears are far more sensitive than any mics we ordinary mortals have, or know how to use properly. I have spent my whole life refining my hearing ability (as most of the rest of us have) despite losing HF sensitivity as I age.
Mics and measurement techniques are constantly playing catch up with what our poor old ears can do! I can even hear the change in sound quality when a single valve is changed. Eh?
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Erm, well you measure each channel separately. Very useful the results are too. No more wondering if the recording engineer deliberately moved the soloist off centre.
 
cooky1257 said:
Nothing in that paper about how a phase anomaly in the reproduction would alter the perception of the real interaction in the duet.
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Ah well, you can lead a horse to water but ................

Or as Dorothy Parker once said "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." :)
 
jkeny said:
Ah well, you can lead a horse to water but ................

Or as Dorothy Parker once said "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." :)
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How? If the recording is picking up the discordant vibrato effect then what phase anomaly in the reproduction would unpick it?
 
I don't think that paper is very helpful here due to the term "phase" being used to refer to different things for different purposes.
 
cooky1257 said:
How? If the recording is picking up the discordant vibrato effect then what phase anomaly in the reproduction would unpick it?
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First of all you call "bollox" on my post that voices can go in & out of phase lock.
Then when a paper is produced which studied this & analysed "Recordings of Dame Joan Sutherland singing the ''Flower Duet' from the opera Lakme by Delibes with each of 3 different singers were studied. The powerful SpectraPro software was used for analysis. Our results show one singer
looking in phase with Dame Joan, another locking in antiphase and another exhibiting phase wander."

Now you want to know how phase issues might occur in reproduction. Jeez!
 
The clue Mr Keny is in the word "re-production". Maybe if one could Google what that means it would be a good starting point?
 
It's possibly a source of concern (if not surprise) that a person claiming to be an audio designer doesn't seemingly understand the concept of audio reproduction.
 
But but the mic HAS picked up the vibrato, it isn't a phase 'anomaly' its a function of how the two singers are modulating their harmony/duet. Now it was stated that a phase anomaly in the reproduction will alter how this vibrato/phase/anti- lock is perceived-if perceived at all... and that is Bollocks;-).
 
cooky1257 said:
But but the mic HAS picked up the vibrato, it isn't a phase 'anomaly' its a function of how the two singers are modulating their harmony/duet. Now it was stated that a phase anomaly in the reproduction will alter how this vibrato/phase/anti- lock is perceived-if perceived at all... and that is Bollocks;-).
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Firstly, nobody said that the singer's vibrato was a phase 'anomaly'.
Secondly, group delay in digital filters & group delay in speaker crossovers can cause signal delays that are frequency dependant.
Do you think that this will not have an effect on the correct reproduction of the phase/anti-phase that was captured by the mics?
 
jkeny said:
Firstly, nobody said that the singer's vibrato was a phase 'anomaly'.
Secondly, group delay in digital filters & group delay in speaker crossovers can cause signal delays that are frequency dependant.
Do you think that this will not have an effect on the correct reproduction of the phase/anti-phase that was captured by the mics?
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It would have to be a very very very specific set of phase issues that would render that vibrato effect inaudible. You jumped in answering a question about someone(awkward's) else post. that post suggested the subtle phase anomaly wouldn't be picked up by a microphone only by you ears, you link to a paper using a recording /analysing the vibrato effect-ie a recording via a mic.

FWIW, This was the post I responded to; "OK, off the top of my head let's take one example. The stereo image is slightly off centre. How is your mic (singular) going to hear that? Or there is a subtle phase anomaly that your ears pick up, making voices in a choir sound "off". Your mic picks that up too?"
 
cooky1257 said:
It would have to be a very very very specific set of phase issues that would render that vibrato effect inaudible. You jumped in answering a question about someone(awkward's) else post. that post suggested the subtle phase anomaly wouldn't be picked up by a microphone only by you ears, you link to a paper using a recording /analysing the vibrato effect-ie a recording via a mic.

FWIW, This was the post I responded to; "OK, off the top of my head let's take one example. The stereo image is slightly off centre. How is your mic (singular) going to hear that? Or there is a subtle phase anomaly that your ears pick up, making voices in a choir sound "off". Your mic picks that up too?"
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Nobody said that the vibrato effect would be rendered 'inaudible' - I think the statement made was that it would be perceivably changed - as per the part of his post that reads 'making voices in a choir sound "off"'?

Are you still maintaining that this would require "a very very very specific set of phase issues"?

I am not defending & have not defended anything to do with recording using one microphone - I simply responded to this post of yours
"How does a subtle phase anomaly make voices in a choir sound off?
What are you talking about?"

So, now that this is all cleared up, can we move on?
 
jkeny said:
Firstly, nobody said that the singer's vibrato was a phase 'anomaly'.
Secondly, group delay in digital filters & group delay in speaker crossovers can cause signal delays that are frequency dependant.
Do you think that this will not have an effect on the correct reproduction of the phase/anti-phase that was captured by the mics?
Click to expand...

Yes. Show me gear that produces such phase distortion that singers of approximately the same pitch are mangled out of phase. Hint: you are looking for the mother of all effects boxes.

Either what you refer to is imagined, or if it is real, it has nothing to do with phase.
 
jkeny said:
Nobody said that the vibrato effect would be rendered 'inaudible' - I think the statement made was that it would be perceivably changed - as per the part of his post that reads 'making voices in a choir sound "off"'?

Are you still maintaining that this would require "a very very very specific set of phase issues"?

I am not defending & have not defended anything to do with recording using one microphone - I simply responded to this post of yours
"How does a subtle phase anomaly make voices in a choir sound off?
What are you talking about?"

So, now that this is all cleared up, can we move on?
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I willing to accept crossed wires. Yes it would take a very specific set of phase issues in the reproduction chain to make these singers 'sound off'. unless you can illustrate a situation where a system can alter the phase of just one vocalist....
 
Werner said:
Yes. Show me gear that produces such phase distortion that singers of approximately the same pitch are mangled out of phase. Hint: you are looking for the mother of all effects boxes.

Either what you refer to is imagined, or if it is real, it has nothing to do with phase.
Click to expand...

That might be correct when talking about this particular example - an operatic duet but the original post was about the voices in a choir
 
jkeny said:
That might be correct when talking about this particular example - an operatic duet but the original post was about the voices in a choir
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That was just one example, I'm sure someone can come up with a better one. But my point was...
How many here have just gone off down their usual paths, arguing around in circles while NOT addressing the point I made?
 
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