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I am the (ES14) tweaker!

The Captain

The Captain

~~~~~~~~~~
Hi y'all, been a while.. hope everyone well, zener & Co on here.

thought I'd share a project: an ongoing venture with suggestions & fab help from FatMarley on 'the wam.

If you cast your mind back my hifi was: Lp12/mission 774, roksan caspian 1 cdp, naim 32.5 & diy'cap, naim nap140.. & es14's. The preamp modded with it's supperregs in, & diy hicap I made "on pfm" which hasn't missed a beat since. Fantastic. Testament to pfm. So since then I've changed... nothing at all!

Now recently I thought tho the tweeter, sounded a bit pants/ kinda uncontrolled & splashy & also not too interesting. The midbass on the otherhand.. I think a bit of a masterpiece.

So could I put in a new tweeter? Yes, indeed I could is the answer. It's getting the crossover right at the mo, or rather what my ears simply like in my old stone cottage room, but been great fun.

Tweeters: Morel cat-378. silk-dome, horn flared. Rather bloomin snazzy (& fairly pricey). Even with audible minor pitfalls I'm figuring out, or rather FatMarley kindly is regarding the crossover.. the improvement is considerable. Quite a bit of work fashioning a new (birch ply) baffle, the tricky bit.

I'll put up some pics if I can remember how, tomorrow.

Bye, Capt
 
My main concern regarding my es14s compared to SBLs is the nature of the treble so very interested in how this pans out.
 
Fatmarley said:
Slightly off-topic, but have you considered room treatment?
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Hi FatM, room treatment for-? Im happy with my room, as it gives me ooodles of bass from my es14's ( no idea how, most folks say they're bass light.. but to me they're the very opposite, bass heavy, so I bung a port up).

I may have increaced bass a bit by putting 4x 10,000uf kendeils in my nap140 though. Usually 4x 4700uf iirc.

-------

Could someone remind me how to put a photo up? I click the small icon, then see "insert url" box to fill... & I'm stuck.

Thanks, Capt
 
The Captain said:
Hi FatM, room treatment for-? Im happy with my room, as it gives me ooodles of bass from my es14's ( no idea how, most folks say they're bass light.. but to me they're the very opposite, bass heavy, so I bung a port up).

I may have increaced bass a bit by putting 4x 10,000uf kendeils in my nap140 though. Usually 4x 4700uf iirc.

-------

Could someone remind me how to put a photo up? I click the small icon, then see "insert url" box to fill... & I'm stuck.

Thanks, Capt
Click to expand...


Hi Capt,

In the PM I told you I was feeling rough, well I've done a test and I have Covid. Thought I was immune, but obviously not (assuming test isn't dodgy).

From the way you describe the sound of your speakers, your room must be quite different to mine. Mine is heavily furnished and has a king-size Ottoman bed, full of clothes, that almost fills half the room. In my room they were a touch bass light, even with the port bungs removed. And nothing jumped out as being bad. Compared to my speakers, just a touch laid back. We listened to a lot of music and even with the crossover designed by ear, they didn't sound anywhere near as bad as I'd expected. On paper, the crossover does look terrible, but the phase cancellations must be in the right places.

Most people say room treatment was the best upgrade they ever did. Reflections from boundaries can really mess up the sound, and it sounds like you may benefit from some.

To post pictures, you need to upload them to an image hosting website and put the BBCODE in the image icon at the top of your post. I use Imgur.
 
Ironically, when I first got into speaker design, I was using the 2-channel method to take measurements using LspCAD and JustMLS. It's a pain because there are lots of cables involved, and if you hook something up wrong, there's a risk of blowing a driver. I know because I did it.

Jeff Bagby (RIP) was the DIY speaker building guru, and he wrote a couple of papers describing how to measure and design a crossover with a USB microphone. So I started doing it that way because it was a lot easier.

I measured Captains speakers with a USB microphone (Omnimic), and have since found out that some people have gone back to the 2-channel measurement system because it is more accurate.

Anyway, here are some simulations using VituixCAD -

The 'done by ear' crossover, that Captain quite likes, but phase tracking looks pretty bad.

OurQ3FY.png


He also tried a single 1uF cap, but didn't like it. Phase tracking is better (at least there's a big null at the crossover frequency), but there's a peak in the frequency response between 10khz and 20khz.

zGUviMR.jpg


This is the proposed crossover. Phase tracking is much, much better. The frequency response is also much more linear, but I'm worried about his room already having lots of bass. May need to use the bung on both ports, or lower the port tuning frequency because of the added BSC.

DOzMXzI.jpg
 
I used ES14s for many years and only replaced them with some heavily rebuilt/modified Yamaha NS-1000Ms. Regarding the tweeter, well, the whole speaker, it’s been said many times that it is source and amp sensitive and this cannot be stated too strongly. As a whole the speaker has quite a high impedance and whilst this makes it quite easy to drive it isn’t all that sensitive. Ironically, the splashy quality that can sometimes be heard I concluded was not primarily the tweeter but the fault of the mid/bass where it crosses over to the tweeter. Bear in mind that there is no crossover on the mid and so it’s run wide open. The phase plug possible helps ameliorate the impact of top end breakup, but it can’t stop it. Replacing the capacitor that is in series with the tweeter for a better quality polypropylene does make a worthwhile difference in that it makes the top end sweeter and more tonal differentiated.
 
I'd be very surprised if the breakup from that plastic midbass driver was audible. There isn't a sharp peak in the raw frequency response, and plastic has very good self damping.

If anything, it could be caused by the hump in the 1khz region. Although I normally like a hump there, it may be too high. Phase cancellations with the new crossover are dropping that area down, and according to Captain are giving a more relaxed presentation.

I didn't get a chance to listen to the standard speakers, so had to go by Captains description of the sound, and the stereophile measurements. I'm not a fan of metal tweeters, and that one doesn't measure great either.

What I didn't know was the relative acoustic center of a driver with a phase plug can be more forward than one without. Normally, the offset of your tweeter is in front of the woofer, but in this case it's 41mm behind. It looks like a flat faceplate tweeter would have been a better choice.
 
My concern with a 4th order crossover is every one I've tried, has sounded a bit forward, and I can't get 2nd or 3rd order to work. Although it's not actually a thing, I have found in the past that a 3rd order Linkwitz-Riley can work quite well, so may sound better.

5GBajxK.jpg
 
martin clark said:
Good heavens it's been a while.
Nice to see you here again. ATB
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Hiya Martin.. I've been going through the usernames & recognised yours/ your Calvin pic 1st up. Yup. been 9 years. I've been on the wam, but it's not up to pfm. I didn't have an avatar before, so some folks won't pick up it's Capt.

First I recalled was zener, but not seen his name since wknd I got back on board.. is he still about?
 
Fatmarley said:
Hi Capt,

In the PM I told you I was feeling rough, well I've done a test and I have Covid. Thought I was immune, but obviously not (assuming test isn't dodgy).

From the way you describe the sound of your speakers, your room must be quite different to mine. Mine is heavily furnished and has a king-size Ottoman bed, full of clothes, that almost fills half the room. In my room they were a touch bass light, even with the port bungs removed. And nothing jumped out as being bad. Compared to my speakers, just a touch laid back. We listened to a lot of music and even with the crossover designed by ear, they didn't sound anywhere near as bad as I'd expected. On paper, the crossover does look terrible, but the phase cancellations must be in the right places.

Most people say room treatment was the best upgrade they ever did. Reflections from boundaries can really mess up the sound, and it sounds like you may benefit from some.

To post pictures, you need to upload them to an image hosting website and put the BBCODE in the image icon at the top of your post. I use Imgur.
Click to expand...

Hi FatM, yes I read you were under par.. bad luck, hope you're picking up/ you've had a rough month for bugs. Not easy with your youngsters to worry about catching it too I'm sure.

Tbh I think my room is the most furnished I have, it's my sitting room with two sofas, curtains closed when i listen too. It is a low beamed ceiling old miners cottage ( will do a pic, if I work out how), solid concrete floor straight onto clay (bloooomin cold tho!) & stone walls so I get a nice "demo room" solidity, albeit spkr positions are 1 in a corner ( I dont do the 'bring them way out forward' thing; like you it's likely just not conjusive to live around them like so) & both sat back just 6" from wall behind. They're good/ very good to me, yes corner one booms a bit so I bung up this one port.

What I do want to avoid then, is -adding- anymore to the bass with any new crossover: then I'd have to recap my nap140 back to 4x 4,700's, which is alot of cost & work, for me. This is the only way to reduce bass.

I found with the 1uf cap, the bass did increace by a bit: now I just kept it in check though by bunging both ports. But any extra than this, & it's problematic really.

Thx
 
YNWOAN said:
I used ES14s for many years and only replaced them with some heavily rebuilt/modified Yamaha NS-1000Ms. Regarding the tweeter, well, the whole speaker, it’s been said many times that it is source and amp sensitive and this cannot be stated too strongly. As a whole the speaker has quite a high impedance and whilst this makes it quite easy to drive it isn’t all that sensitive. Ironically, the splashy quality that can sometimes be heard I concluded was not primarily the tweeter but the fault of the mid/bass where it crosses over to the tweeter. Bear in mind that there is no crossover on the mid and so it’s run wide open. The phase plug possible helps ameliorate the impact of top end breakup, but it can’t stop it. Replacing the capacitor that is in series with the tweeter for a better quality polypropylene does make a worthwhile difference in that it makes the top end sweeter and more tonal differentiated.
Click to expand...
Hi ynwoan, I remember you too.. hope all's well.

I did try a better cap with the old tweeters, but couldn't hear any difference.. likely your ears better detectors than mine. With the morels, even as is with a 'best drop-in temporary crossover' 2.2uf & 7r (i think it's better than a temp-guesstimate tbh: recommended by FatM early on just to try) I get a sweeter treble, more detail, no splashyness, much much more control: it's a step into higher quality acoustics. And even if my mids are a tad thin & vox too.. it's way better like so than before.

Get this tricky crossover connundrum right, IE without adding a dose more bass or going OTT on the mids & treble too.. & the speaker will be leaps ahead. This tweeter is used in some £8k speakers, forget which, but I can just tell why they were chosen.
 
@Fatmarley my mancave.. I close curtains rhs like this probably helping reflections (& ceiling beams may help break up reflections too-? Who knows), best room I've ever had for space & solidity. I get great soundstaging behind & between the speakers/ very good imaging with these es14's as many will know, similarly es11's too.
52401194316_f7958500cc_m.jpg
 
The Captain said:
Get this tricky crossover connundrum right, IE without adding a dose more bass or going OTT on the mids & treble too.. & the speaker will be leaps ahead. This tweeter is used in some £8k speakers, forget which, but I can just tell why they were chosen.
Click to expand...

The woofers low frequencies start to roll off at 100hz, so it's the port that produces the large majority of the bass. The crossover above only drops about 1db of the midrange/treble, so you'll only get one extra decibel of bass. Like I said previously, all you need to do is either extend the port or reduce the diameter to lower the port tuning frequency. It's got quite a large diameter port IIRC, so that could be an option. Or use the bungs on both ports. The other option is to fill the ports with straws.

Could you try to describe in as much detail as possible what you like and don't like about the current 7.2R 2.2uF crossover?
 
The Captain said:
I found with the 1uf cap, the bass did increace by a bit: now I just kept it in check though by bunging both ports. But any extra than this, & it's problematic really.

Thx
Click to expand...

I've been looking at the graphs, trying to work out why you think there's a tad more bass with the 1uF cap. Obviously, the low end hasn't changed, so it’s only what happens higher up that changes your perception. On-axis, with your current crossover, you have quite a bit more output compared to the 1uF crossover above about 3000hz, so the treble range, and a dip around the presence region (1000hz to 3000hz). This is where off-axis measurements 'could' help reveal what's going on, but we don't have those.

I think we really need to start with as flat a frequency response as possible. At the moment, the frequency response is all over the place, and it's difficult to work out what's going on.
 
Fatmarley said:
The woofers low frequencies start to roll off at 100hz, so it's the port that produces the large majority of the bass. The crossover above only drops about 1db of the midrange/treble, so you'll only get one extra decibel of bass. Like I said previously, all you need to do is either extend the port or reduce the diameter to lower the port tuning frequency. It's got quite a large diameter port IIRC, so that could be an option. Or use the bungs on both ports. The other option is to fill the ports with straws.

Could you try to describe in as much detail as possible what you like and don't like about the current 7.2R 2.2uF crossover?
Click to expand...

Understood FatM. I've not done the straws in a speaker before, new one on me this. Well that's good if it's just the port adding the bass, say in the 1uf crossover.

With my cdp, the current 2.2/7r crossover is almost spot on.. but the vox are very slightly recessed compared to before with original tweeter. And soundstage a little smaller too. If you listen hard, there's a bit of a gap in some part of midrange perhaps.

With my Lp12/ mission 774, these very same facets are simply a bit more pronounced that's all. I listen 3/4 minimum, to the Lp12 you see.

---

What's good with this crossover actually outweighs these minor pitfalls, meaning it's a perfectly listenable speaker without anything -obvious- striking you as bad. I think your innitial listen tallied with this pov. The treble has the best sweetness of all the crossovers, it's "character" is best heard, & the best ammount of added leading edge (esp compared to old tweeters) to the lower mids & even to the bass with this crossover too.

So it's really, perhaps/ in my naiive book, just a case in principle.. of filling this 'gap' in the mids. Though I know it's likely far from simple in practise.

Thanks
 
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