How to replace KEF Cantor ll's

[Minio]

Looking for something that sounds like these in a more up to date build.

They sound sort of BBC(ish) to me. The mid to top sounds well integrated and accurate and, above all, a joy to listen to, particularly on jazz and similar type of not so electronic stuff. Not too bad with most music really though as the bass is there but not overbearingly.

8" woofer and a T27 seems about right in my room, from experience, to fire across the narrow end of a 11' by 22' room.

An LS5/9 might do the trick but 4.8K in hard earned is bit beyond my reality.

 

[stuwils]

budget?

Rgds
Stuart

 

[Minio]

Up to around 1.5K. Will consider recent used.

I'm looking for something like a bigger LS3/5a with that traditional BBC look and sound.

Mini monitors don't really do it for me as they get a bit lost in the room.

 

[Darren L]

Used Harbeth or Spendor ?
Or perhaps new Wharfdales or KLH?
They've the traditional looks, no idea about what they sound like.

 

[Jowcol]

IMO finding speakers you like is really difficult. You can’t take advice from others.
And you must try them at home for a while to get used to them. That means if you’re not buying new, then you have to buy ‘wisely’.

I didn’t used to think that speakers deteriorated with age, now I think that they all do.

I notice that your Cantor II has a PVC surround. I didn’t know that KEF used them.
There is another well-known make who used them, and it was a massive problem, dreadful deterioration.
What you are hearing might well not be original spec, or BBC-sound. Which might be why you find them bass-light.

8” bass units are not that common these days.

People will suggest:
1) Spendor. Classic Range. The company has long since changed direction, steadily moving away from BBC.
2) Harbeth. Compact 7, and Monitor 30. A lot of people like them. I haven’t liked any Harbeth I have heard.

For me Derek Hughes is THE man for BBC design. That means:

3) Stirling Broadcast. I understand Stirling has/is retiring. Derek designed the SB88, it is the same as the old Spendor SP2. There is a pair on ebay now with stands, he will likely take an offer. I have never seen another pair for sale.

4) Graham Audio. LS5/9 do appear for sale at slightly above what you want to pay. The BBC label pushes prices up.

I am suspecting that you will hear that your Cantor are way out of spec and sound very different from a newer speaker.

 

[Minio]

I am suspecting that you will hear that your Cantor are way out of spec and sound very different from a newer speaker.

I think you are right that with older speakers you can never be sure how far they have moved away from the original spec.

The rubber surrounds seem good on the Cantors. No stickiness or rot.
Likewise the tweeters compare particularly well, sonically, to some more modern types I've heard.

You can only go on whether you enjoy them or not.
I've tried a few oldies and been mostly lucky with what I have found but I have made one or two mistakes along the way, I will admit.

One advantage is that older speakers can be less expensive mistakes than full retail new ones.

I guess I'm looking for something a bit more respectable than something off Delboy's barrow, but with the classic KEF / BBC kind of vibe.

 

[Jowcol]

The surrounds are PVC not rubber. They don't go sticky or rot, they go hard which stops the cone moving properly. That's why I expect you will have reduced bass, and probably have to turn the amp up to get them to move.
I've never seen problems mentioned with KEF drivers, but that's what PVC does.
Cantor III was also PVC. It was more widely used than I thought.

IMO, the thing with the speakers from 70's/80's was that hifi users listened to more Classical music and crucially went to a lot of live Classical concerts, so they had a reference point. Most people these days don't have that reference.
I struggle to find modern speakers that I like. But I can't buy the old speakers because they are (likely) out of spec.

That classic sound you seem to be looking for will probably be from the ones I mentioned above.

 

[Martyn Miles]

I have a friend who owns Cantor 11s.
Nice speakers...
I think the Stirling SB88s could well suit you.
To my ears that have that ‘BBC sound’, combined with an ‘openess’ missing from some
other BBC influenced designs.
You’ll appreciate that this is only my ‘take’ on them.

 

[deanb64]

IMO finding speakers you like is really difficult. You can’t take advice from others.
And you must try them at home for a while to get used to them. That means if you’re not buying new, then you have to buy ‘wisely’.

I didn’t used to think that speakers deteriorated with age, now I think that they all do.

I notice that your Cantor II has a PVC surround. I didn’t know that KEF used them.
There is another well-known make who used them, and it was a massive problem, dreadful deterioration.
What you are hearing might well not be original spec, or BBC-sound. Which might be why you find them bass-light.

8” bass units are not that common these days.

People will suggest:
1) Spendor. Classic Range. The company has long since changed direction, steadily moving away from BBC.
2) Harbeth. Compact 7, and Monitor 30. A lot of people like them. I haven’t liked any Harbeth I have heard.

For me Derek Hughes is THE man for BBC design. That means:

3) Stirling Broadcast. I understand Stirling has/is retiring. Derek designed the SB88, it is the same as the old Spendor SP2. There is a pair on ebay now with stands, he will likely take an offer. I have never seen another pair for sale.

4) Graham Audio. LS5/9 do appear for sale at slightly above what you want to pay. The BBC label pushes prices up.

I am suspecting that you will hear that your Cantor are way out of spec and sound very different from a newer speaker.

How to tell what is rubber and what is pvc, I have a pair of kef cantor11 and would like to know how you tell whats what.

 

[juicy_clams]

My recommendation would be ProAc's with a front firing port - D2's or the Studio Series. Easy to position and lovely with Jazz.

 

[Jowcol]

How to tell what is rubber and what is pvc, I have a pair of kef cantor11 and would like to know how you tell whats what.

A few weeks back I came across a site where they were talking about rubber surrounds deteriorating significantly and quickly. First I ever heard of it. And they were measuring the performance of drivers, so it wasn't make-believe.
Having repeatedly warned people about old loudspeakers deteriorating, I just went out and bought a 45-year old pair of speakers (rubber surrounds), because I don't seem to get on with new ones.
The old ones have clear failings in some respects, like inability to do really tight bass, but I don't listen to that kind of music, and it is a type of music which didn't even exist when my vintage ones were made.
I previously had a pair of active studio monitors which did astonishingly tight, deep and fast bass, but there was some 'magic' missing, they didn't captivate me.
These old speakers have a magical quality which keeps me listening late into the night. But I don't know what it is.
I have noticed a few people recently commenting that they are not comfortable with new loudspeakers, and prefer older ones.

Rubber has a different feel to PVC. If you go online and search you are likely to find a comment somewhere on what they are. I believe that Cantor II is PVC. I was surprised to discover that KEF 104 has PVC surrounds.
I suggest you take the bass drivers out and prod the surround at the rear with your finger, it should immediately return to it's original shape if it is OK, whether PVC or rubber.

 

[colasblue]

I would think with a £1500 budget you should have absolutely no difficulty in finding something which betters what's essentially an early 1980's budget design in absolutely every way.

I would steer clear of new or recent used since speaker prices have gone crazy in the last 15 years and there's very little VFM to be had there compared older used equipment.

Not sure if it's quite the right slant but you're certainly into Ruark Talisman & Crusader territory or Naim SBL's or Allaes pricewise at least.

If you wanted to go a bit newer then the Kef XQ series might suit. No connection with the seller but these are quite a lot of speaker for the money and certainly look the part.

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[deanb64]

PVC is immune to corrosion. Just an aside. Cheers Dean.

 

[foxwelljsly]

I think you are right that with older speakers you can never be sure how far they have moved away from the original spec.

The rubber surrounds seem good on the Cantors. No stickiness or rot.
Likewise the tweeters compare particularly well, sonically, to some more modern types I've heard.

You can only go on whether you enjoy them or not.
I've tried a few oldies and been mostly lucky with what I have found but I have made one or two mistakes along the way, I will admit.

One advantage is that older speakers can be less expensive mistakes than full retail new ones.

I guess I'm looking for something a bit more respectable than something off Delboy's barrow, but with the classic KEF / BBC kind of vibe.

What did you end up getting? As a fan of vintage Kefs, I would have saved a few quid and found some good 103.2s.

 

[les24preludes]

8" woofer and a T27 seems about right in my room, from experience, to fire across the narrow end of a 11' by 22' room.

An 8" woofer is a very good place to start. But putting a 3/4" tweeter on top of it is unrealistic. An 8" woofer struggles to get to 2K with really good detail and tone and without the crossover having to deal with breakup around 4K or sometimes even lower. The B200 has pretty obvious problems over about 300Hz which is where IMF crossed it over. It's surprising that so many 2-way speakers were made with the B200.

So you either need a better 8" mid-bass crossing over lower in a 2-way or go to a 3-way or an MTM with smaller mid-bass units.

Or just join the 2-way 6.5" mid-bass + tweeter club which has by far the most choice of speakers.

 

[Minio]

What did you end up getting? As a fan of vintage Kefs, I would have saved a few quid and found some good 103.2s.

A pair of these. JPW P1s

A bit of a wild card as you never know what you're likely to be getting with a nearly forty year old speaker pair.

They obviously have some history as the drivers have been changed and changed back to the original type and have been refoamed. Maybe breathed on by a proper audiophile.

Nevertheless I can't fault them. Tweeters sound open and clear. Bass and mid range is natural and nicely integrated.

Look nice enough to me. Yet when new, were about the cheapest of the type and size, that I can see in old magazine shop price lists.

And I've tried many a pair of competitors.


PS: I've just found my original thread on these from last year where I was initially unimpressed.
I certainly have a different opinion now.

 

[Zombie]

Did you ever replace the tired bipolar elcos in the filters?
Could be a cheap way to "modernise" them a little

 

[Markyb]

Kef Cantor 2s were my first proper speaker with a NAD 3020 and dual deck. I had slightly more money than the system including Codas at Billy V so moved up to Cantors. I didn't regret it.

 

[colasblue]

I had a similar system with the later Coda III's.

If I'd had a little more money I might have gone for the Heybrook HB1 or for even more the MA352.