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High Quality Streamers....debate and advice please

Paulq2

Paulq2

pfm Member
Sorry for the long post but would welcome some advice from outside the Linn community.

I have been a long-term Linn owner (20 years+) and have generally been pretty happy with the sound they give but am becoming increasingly brassed off with their treatment of customers and, of late, me.

I own an Akurate DSM and Majik DSM with the former being under consideration to be upgraded to Linn's Katalyst DAC architecture. That would cost £1800 on top of the initial streamer outlay of £6400. I also wanted the case changing from silver to black and was quoted £450 on top of the £1800 Katalyst job for them to be done at the same time. I have held off as I am no longer sure it's not snake oil.

I was then told that the upgrade would take 3 months and that Linn was now 'refusing' to change the case despite me having email correspondence from them confirming that they would, at the above cost.

I'll get to the point - I like their stuff but I don't like them as a Company, at all. Their constant pushing of 'upgrades' like Katalyst and Exakt, at a high cost, along with lousy customer support is a sheer irritation to the point where I am seriously considering selling it all and trying something else. I don't have to - I can stick with Linn and spend nothing but I get to a point where they overstep my value line and that's a problem for me.

So here's where I'd welcome some objective advice guys (and please, leave the Linn hate and derision at home - I have heard it all :)). Having spent a few days researching what a quality alternative would be I have looked at the following:

  • Auralic Altair (£1800)
  • Simaudio Moon 390 (£5000)
  • Lindemann Musicbook25 (TBC)
  • Merdian Zoneplayer 218/MusicCore 200/DSP5200.2 (£8500)
  • Electrocompaniet ECM1 (£3000)
  • Yamaha R-N602 (£600)

The 'must haves' are:

  • Tidal
  • Internet Radio
  • Optical and Coax inputs
  • Preamp (I currently run active speakers) unless I go with the meridian options
  • Robust control point app.

Having read a lot I confess I am no techie but there seem to be polarised opinions on whether the cost of high-end streamers is at all worth it. I like the convenience of one box so I won't be using a PC but my question is rather:

Is there any justification, sound and quality wise, for choosing something like a Linn Akurate (£6400) over something like the Auralic Altair which looks very capable at £1800. I like the idea of Meridian gear given the technology but it's a very closed system and the most expensive.

I don't know whether I should adopt the approach that:

1 - 'they all convert bits and the high-cost ones are a rip off' or

2 - 'the high-cost ones convert bits better'.

All sensible advice would be very well received, along with recommendations for any of the above if people have experience of any of them, and thanks in advance. :)

Sorry again for the long post.
 
Surely you need to get hold of another streamer for home trial and compare it to your existing Linn? Only then will you know if it meets your own sound/value proposition?

I recently bought my first streamer, at the bottom of the chain, an original Pioneer N-50 - it’s not my primary source and SQ was decent enough for flexible background listening (and much better than an RPi with IQaudio DAC I tried a few years back). I then bypassed the DAC in it and fed it into a Rega DAC, and everything got much more musical (but less hifi) and enjoyable.

I also need coax/toslink inputs, so have just ordered and I/O HAT for one of my RPis and will try replacing the N-50 with an RPi streamer feeding the Rega as an experiment.

Richard
 
Dowser said:
Surely you need to get hold of another streamer for home trial and compare it to your existing Linn? Only then will you know if it meets your own sound/value proposition?

I recently bought my first streamer, at the bottom of the chain, an original Pioneer N-50 - it’s not my primary source and SQ was decent enough for flexible background listening (and much better than an RPi with IQaudio DAC I tried a few years back). I then bypassed the DAC in it and fed it into a Rega DAC, and everything got much more musical (but less hifi) and enjoyable.

I also need coax/toslink inputs, so have just ordered and I/O HAT for one of my RPis and will try replacing the N-50 with an RPi streamer feeding the Rega as an experiment.

Richard
Click to expand...

Yes and no, Richard. A home demo will be an absolute must for whatever I choose but, right now, I am wrestling with what to aim at. There's little merit in my chasing an 8k Meridian system if, in truth, it's actually no better than something like the Auralic.

That's the crux of my question really - is there a substantive difference in quality that's differentiated by componentry, or is it all the same and your ears hear what they want to hear.
 
I too would always go for a dedicated streamer, because of the convenience over a PC solution.
Having said that, I believe it's the DAC/pre-amp part that determines the sound quality rather than the streamer itself and I'd certainly consider using a cheapish streamer with a high quality DAC/pre.

As for the control app, that's independent from the rest and you can choose your favourite among the many out there. I happen to like Bubble.
 
Well, yeah, I understand - but collecting opinions will just give you a whole bunch of differing advice as everyone’s value proposition is different. You’ll still end up, in a few weeks, getting an Auralic on home dem to compare to your Linn :)

Interesting to know perhaps is who has traded in a Linn streamer for a lower cost option and been happy?
 
I'd wait a few weeks for the new Auralic G1 Aries and Vega combo, should be available from mid to late June - a bit more expensive that the Altair but leverages G2 technology. I think the two units are ca. GBP3.600 together. If you have a good DAC then you can just consider the Aries unit
 
Though I have listened to a range of expensive dedicated streamers, including Naim, Aurender and others, I have never been convinced that they are better than the more modest set up I have. I run two systems. One is a Roon based system, using Macmini as server and an EDO’d Squeezebox Touch into a decent Dac. The other is a homemade system with Pi,screen and Dac hat with Picoreplayer and LMS as a base. Both run all of the services I listen to, including Tidal etc. The sound quality is excellent in both set ups. Though I have heard differences in my comparisons with other streamers, I have never really been convinced of improvements. One of the interesting observations I have had over time is that once some enthusiasts move into the higher priced Hi-Fi, they find it nigh on impossible to concede that a relatively modest set up may provide equal satisfaction. A simple laptop into a Dac can provide sound quality that readily equals that of more expensive dedicated streamers but some don’t like the look of this set up or site noise etc as a basis to dismiss these. A few tweaks can sort cheaply. If think the biggest advantage for some is the fit and forget nature of these devices for those who don’t have the knowledge or competence to run a Pi based system. I was also interested to read Archimago’s views on the Pi that tally with my own. It’s interesting that some of these higher priced brands are based on a Pi motherboard. I don’t expect all to agree with this but this has been my own view over time.
Del
 
The thing is, you're not looking for a streamer; you're looking for a streaming pre-amp. The variation between preamps is massive. If you were to conclude with skepticism about the variation between streamers (and I'm not offering any opinion myself), then it might make more sense to go for a cheap option like an Aries Mini, plus a really good preamp.
 
Hi

I have owned Majik and akurate dsm and currently very happy with an Altair

I am only selling as I now need analogue in
 
1, Linn appear more interested in playing on-going silly games with dealers than in their customers, which I would suggest don’t really count any more. As such, I am either supposed to go to another dealer if I want a Katalyst upgrade to my DS or wait months until my existing dealer, who actually sold me the kit, is ‘allowed’ to offer upgrades. It is some crappy dealer class discrimination but it’s impact is on me, the customer. This behaviour alone will probably end my relationship with Linn.

2, The Katalyst upgrade is good and the Klimax DS is still among the best digital front ends IMO. I don’t care for the rest of their kit, sadly including the totally trashed bitsa LP12 brand.

3, Streaming is a relatively young technology in hi-fi land (but not elsewhere) and as such more rapid upgrades in this area may, perhaps, be expected.

4, Keep in mind the price of an Apple TV which offers 4K video as well as sound, but is also now in its fourth or so generation.
 
I was an early adopter of streaming, and bought into the Linn DS system after being slightly disappointed with a Mac Mini, using a Behringer DEQ2496 as DAC. The Linn was notably better than the Mac, and rather surprisingly, the Behringer DAC was rather better than the Linn dac (but I've never liked the sound of Linn electronics). I subsequently discovered that the Mac was severely compromised by the cheap no-name SMPSU I was using it with that was broadcasting all sorts of nasties into my, then, Naim system, so my impressions of using a Mac are invalid. I loved the Linn infrastructure, updates and general functionality, and was even able to integrate my Squeezebox Touch so we finally had a decent multi-room system as well. I then tried my SBT in the main system and discovered two things - the family loved the SBT interface and started using the main system to listen to their music (not always a good thing), and the SBT sounded EXACTLY the same as the Linn DS into the same DAC. So I sold my DS and bought a few more SBTs and that is what we use around the house. I built a RPi based 'Squeezebox' for my garden speakers, and tried that in the main system (now with a new, much better sounding DAC) and it sounded exactly the same as the real Squeezebox Touch, so when we needed an extra streamer, I built another RPi and that is now in use as the streamer in the main system. £30 source feeding a £12k system!

So, I'm definitely in the camp that all streamers (with a decent quiet PSU) that are working properly, sound the same. The Squeezebox infrastructure, which is open source and community supported is brilliant, so all you need for audio bliss is a decent DAC/Preamp. If you separate the streamer from your DAC/preamp requirements you will have a lot more money to spend where it counts.
 
Advantage of Linn: you are in a 'system' that hangs together and can be supported by your dealer. Linns' customers are well heeled but many of them are not hands on audiophiles and are not capable of dealing with multi-make systems.

Disadvantage: everything you already know about.

Tis obviously true that loads of alternatives will give you what you want - but the equipment rack will look less organised and central remote control will be less intuitive. You will end up with tablet and possibly multiple remote controls - I have tablet and 4 controls. The wife has no idea how to play music, but can just about get a DVD to play.
 
Where are you in the UK? You need to hear another streamer alongside your existing one before changing. All your criteria can be met by the combination I use a Project Pre box S2 DAC with Linear Power supply and a Raspberry Pi with Allo Digione CoAx interface, total cost under £600.Operated from a mobile phone. The question is how much worse is the sound than a £6000 Linn unit? An A/B comparison could be interesting.
 
I moved from Linn to Auralic a while ago... my specific requirements were a bit different but I have been happy with them. I replaced 3 x Sneaky's with Aries Minis (I was already using external power amps with the Sneakys as they didn't have enough power). In my main system I use a combination of an Aries and Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. I have been very happy with all of them, the Aries replaced an Akurate DS driving an external DAC. I think they sound at least as good as the equivalent Linn systems. and the software works very well - not completely dissimilar to Kinsky/Kazoo but you do get a couple of new search features not available on the Linn platform such as searching on date imported into their database. Their support seems pretty good - I had a few issues early on which I managed to get fixed with their support desk pretty quickly.I managed to sell the Linn kit for more than the cost of replacing them with the Auralic kit.... The Auralic kit also supports DSD and I had a number of ripped SACDs which I wanted to playback.
 
In terms of sound quality, when compared through the same dac there will be no difference, choose something that will play everything you could possibly want now and in the future.
I believe the most important factor is the UI, this is your only point of contact with streaming services and your library, I like ROON very much but there are many!
Keith
 
I haven’t got any Linn gear, but I have to say I find their approach to upgrades superb, I wish other manufacturers would follow it. Instead of having your streamer rendered obsolete every year or two, you get the option of a complete upgrade, plus the streamer back in a cheap case if you wish. Seems a pretty good deal to me. You can’t stop progress, you can’t ask people not to develop their products. All the possible alternative products in the o/ps list rendered their precursors obsolete, and will themselves be rendered obsolete, most sooner rather than later. Auralic, for example, have had several iterations of their products, none of which iirc were upgrades. So whether you take a big hit selling second hand, or pay Linn handsomely to upgrade last weeks state of the art, staying at the front just costs money. The alternative is to just be happy with what you have.
 
Paulq2 said:
All sensible advice would be very well received, along with recommendations for any of the above if people have experience of any of them, and thanks in advance. :)
Click to expand...

Thing that I've learned is that the impact of individual parts of the system on general sound quality is as follows: digital source << amp (unless under-powered for the room and speakers) < pre-amp <<< speakers
I don't know any of the players you've mentioned (I have Akurate DS/0 + Dynamik), but I highly doubt you'll find major differences between any of these. Ergonomics, stability, control software - these may vary.

TL;DR: keep the Akurate and enjoy your music :)
 
I've just been looking into this aspect in detail also. My 10p:
Make sure you resolve the user interface first. After many years (15+) of streaming roon kicks the rest into the long grass....IMHO
Find a good server which has USB/or ethernet output for roon.
I'm using both USB and ethernet out from my server to the relevant input on my Devialet D220 Pro. Currently preferring USB.
roon streams TIDAL as its integrated nicely into their interface. No need for ethernet 'output' to the system, just ethernet 'in' to stream online services.
Sell the Linn kit, buy amp with USB/ethernet input, either integrated or pre/power.

I'm currently looking/considering one of these http://antipodesaudio.com/antipodes-cx.html roon/USB out into amp/DAC
 
Roon is great. If the transport delivers the music intact then a quality Dac will take care of the rest, but it doesn’t have to be expensive.
 
The more i read and learn about servers/transports the better. Products like the Antipodes have gone to great lengths to prove why care and attention to detail counts and soon adds up.
 
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