High end streamers, waste of money or not, please?

[scotty38]

What's the internal DAC like on the Node?

Sounds perfectly fine to me but I have to come clean and say I'm not big on comparisons or trying to articulate nuances anyway. As it happens I'm using an (inexpensive) Audio Note DAC which I find warmer/smoother/slightly less harsh/call it what you will but that's just my view and if I really sat down and compared I may change my mind

 

[cctaylor]

If you want to dip your toe in the streaming water you could do worse than try the Yamaha WXAD-10. Available from £120. The native MusicCast app is not user friendly and inflexible. I use Bubbleupnp on Android (£3.50). This can access from local sources and from Tidal (CD quality) and Qobuz (including hi-res).

I find it difficult to distinguish between the same track played on my Linn Karik/Numerik or streamed through the Yamaha. Obviously a/b comparison is difficult due to slightly different output levels from each source.

 

[matfff]

have spent NDS-tyoe money in 2013 and found that the product was obsolete and/or discontinued within 5 years.
Mines still working!!

 

[webster]

What's the internal DAC like on the Node?

The internal DAC is absolutely fine but I found I could better it via optical into a Rega Dac R. Interestingly Keith has linked a review where the reviewer was unlucky enough to find a problem with the toslink implementation - I have to say I experienced no such problems and actually found toslink gave a marginally better sound to coaxial in my system.
Where the Bluesound scores heavily is ease of use and the fact that it supports all the main players in the streaming market. The Bluos app is regularly updated and provides a really nice user experience.

 

[hifi-dog]

i think they are an ESS sabre dac so squeeky clean, but for me a bit sterile.

 

[zippy]

Hi, it takes a digital source, say from a NAS or PC (audio files say, or Tidal, Internet radio e.t.c) and does the DAC and provides an output that can go onto be amplified. Some contain their own pre and power amplification.

I disagree - my understanding is that a true streamer only takes the digital source as a data stream, and formats it. Then it passes it onto a DAC.
Some streamers have DACs inbuilt, some have amps. My Cyrus has neither.
I feel it's worth spending a decent amount of money, but I've tried several streamers and none made any significant change to the sound.

 

[scotty38]

....... linked a review where the reviewer was unlucky enough to find a problem with the toslink implementation - I have to say I experienced no such problems.........
Where the Bluesound scores heavily is ease of use and the fact that it supports all the main players in the streaming market. The Bluos app is regularly updated and provides a really nice user experience.

Reminds me, yet again, not to bother reading stuff there

Oh and agree with your points 100%, the Node doesn't have anything negative going for it in my opinion.

 

[Stemcor]

My answer the op’s question is that high end streamers are not a waste of money but you do not need to spend much to get high end performance.

Having been through a NDX/Naim dac/Teddy XPS and a Squeezebox touch/Teddy touch psu/Teddy dac I’ve now settled on a mac mini/Teddy dac combo. The nas has gone and it’s a simple combo which works. What is a bit scary is the chinese £5 dac and £40 psu I bought on the advice of the founder of NVA. It’s about 90% of the performance of the Teddy - quite incredible value.

I’m tempted to get a raspberry pi and add the cheapo dac psu. This could be a very good source for little over £100 !

 

[Timcat]

I can only relate my own experiences here, but having gone from iMac to optimised Mac Mini to Melco, the latter definitely sounds better in my main system. If I put the Melco in my second system, it doesn't sound any better than the Macbook Pro I use there.

The first digital source I used was a Dell laptop. This was followed by an Intel Atom based computer running the Vortexbox Linux distro. With some DACs, both injected audible noise into the DAC via USB (I could hear the noise coming through the speakers very clearly). I solved the problem with a cheap Olimex isolation board; noise gone and overall SQ increased.

In my view, the problem here was poor DAC design, in the sense that the designers did not take into account the fact that computers are inherently noisy beasts. I don't need the isolation board with any of my current DACs (Mytek and RME), but, that said, I no longer use a general purpose computer as a source (I use Aries Minis)!

 

[Yomanze]

The first digital source I used was a Dell laptop. This was followed by an Intel Atom based computer running the Vortexbox Linux distro. With some DACs, both injected audible noise into the DAC via USB (I could hear the noise coming through the speakers very clearly). I solved the problem with a cheap Olimex isolation board; noise gone and overall SQ increased.

In my view, the problem here was poor DAC design, in the sense that the designers did not take into account the fact that computers are inherently noisy beasts. I don't need the isolation board with any of my current DACs (Mytek and RME), but, that said, I no longer use a general purpose computer as a source (I use Aries Minis)!

USB can very noisy. Not all USB front ends have proper common-mode filtering / galvanic isolation, so this can lead to RF / EMI coupling into the DAC circuits. However, spending £1000s on a server seems a bit counter-productive, providing the USB input's well-sorted.

Then again, if you have an excellent DAC with a poor USB input, then surely a low-noise streamer will help. I have a DAC that is jitter-sensitive, so address with with a very low jitter SPDIF signal.

 

[gustavm]

I've a Pi2 which I occasionally drag out to fiddle with, but there are two things that stop me using it - 1. Despite trying various options, Volumio, etc., the blasted thing still hangs every now and again, and I have to pull the system up on a display to figure out what's happened. 2.

I have had stability problems using a Pi server in one room to another Pi running squeezelite in another room, but all the problems I think are down to variable wifi performance. Running picoreplayer with LMS on the same Pi device, playing out via USB into external DAC (Chord 2Qute) gives very good results, where only the control channel and not the music stream goes via the wifi router in another room (at least for FLAC files held on the device itself). Its pretty much indistinguishable from my CDX2 player + external PSU.

Conceptually to me, spending money on expensive storage/streaming solutions upstream of the DAC seems akin to worrying about whether my CDs are stored on an anti-vibration shelf

 

[Dozey]

It is a very personal question. If you can't hear a difference it is a waste of money to you. If you hear a difference it depends how important that difference is to you.

There will always be some people who can't hear a difference and tell you it is a waste of money

 

[foxwelljsly]

I agree with you insofar as the influence streamers (without DACs) have on SQ is concerned. So long as their output is bit perfect and you have a competently designed DAC, streamers do not influence SQ; as you say, their output is identical! But, I do understand why people choose to pay more and move on from a RPi or similar. I have used a RPi as a streamer and it worked fine but the available UIs (Volumio and the like) are or were somewhat limiting and the the machine would fall over every so often, or simply become inaccessible. OK, being a bit go a geek, I could always find it again via a browser interface, but you can imagine how well it went down with the family when they couldn't access their music and I told them to start by entering the Pi's IP address into the browser on their phones!

I think that it is worth paying a little more for usability and a decent UI, or even significantly more if you want a pretty box. Currently I use Auralic Aries Minis in two systems because they are reliable and I like the UI (almost as good as Roon, but free). These were not expensive (about £400) but unfortunately are no longer made. I get the impression that Auralic dropped them because customers realised that they were just as good as the full sized Aries devices, but at a third of the price! If one of my Minis failed, I think that I would buy one of the full sized Aries boxes, not expecting any change in SQ, but to maintain the UI because I like it.

Edit, I forgot to mention that I use the Aries Minis with separate DACs connected by USB.

Totally. Personally, for a family friendly solution, I stick with Plex and Spotify etc. smartphones and Chromecasts. I love the UI on the Cambridge audio streamers and they don't costs big bucks over their DACs - anything you can't say this about remains an abject ripoff.

 

[djftw]

chinese £5 dac and £40 psu I bought...
I’m tempted to get a raspberry pi and add the cheapo dac psu. This could be a very good source for little over £100 !

Don’t be coy, we’re all dying to know which DAC and PSU!

PS (Shameless Plug) I have a Pi listed in the classifieds

 

[topa]

that said, I no longer use a general purpose computer as a source (I use Aries Minis)!

On the contrary, my Atom based Fit-PCs running Daphile sound much better than a SB Touch or Aries Mini, all into the same DAC.

 

[Darren]

[QUOTE="matfff, post: 4043476, member: 18394" Despite all my perceived wisdom, streaming was a revelation to me. I have now ripped all those CD’s to a Core and stream via the NDS. Honestly, the sound is amazing, far, far closer to vinyl than I could of ever dreamt or hoped. I have no idea why it sounds so good, but the 150 quid Auna sounded better than the CDS3 and it’s 2K power supply! Give streaming a go. I have no interest in Tidal, Quobuz e.t.c, if I want new music I buy the files and add to the Core, so having ‘the latest’ is of no interest to me.[/QUOTE]

Fascinating...... I cant understand why playing ripped CDs sounds so much better in your system.... after all, they are the same files. I'm looking forwards to attempting the same comparison.

 

[Stemcor]

Don’t be coy, we’re all dying to know which DAC and PSU!

PS (Shameless Plug) I have a Pi listed in the classifieds

Just checked and no £5 dacs on ebay anymore although they are available on aliexpress at a reduced price of £3.91 !

The 2 I have look like the one in the first photo in the attachment although you will need to use your imagination a little. There is also a link in a subsequent posting to a psu.

https://www.********************/viewtopic.php?t=50088

 

[Stemcor]

Drat. I forgot that h*f*subjectivist was banned from pfm. I can’t post links from my mobile so I’ll do something when I’m next on a pc.

Tony, in view of the passing of RD and the new ownership of NVA, is it time to rescind the ban ?

 

[matfff]

[QUOTE="matfff, post: 4043476, member: 18394" Despite all my perceived wisdom, streaming was a revelation to me. I have now ripped all those CD’s to a Core and stream via the NDS. Honestly, the sound is amazing, far, far closer to vinyl than I could of ever dreamt or hoped. I have no idea why it sounds so good, but the 150 quid Auna sounded better than the CDS3 and it’s 2K power supply! Give streaming a go. I have no interest in Tidal, Quobuz e.t.c, if I want new music I buy the files and add to the Core, so having ‘the latest’ is of no interest to me.

Fascinating...... I cant understand why playing ripped CDs sounds so much better in your system.... after all, they are the same files. I'm looking forwards to attempting the same comparison.[/QUOTE]
I know, I’m a ChemEng by training, now retired and I don’t like it when I don’t understand something! One theory I’ve heard is that by ripping the files, you don’t encounter the error/error correction that you get whilst playing a CD. I could understand that in a cheap as chips player, but I don’t buy it in any well constructed player with good and multiple error correction processes. So why sending the same files to a router and then to a streamer sound better than playing the same files via a CD is beyond me. It’s not a subtle difference either.

 

[Darth Vader]

This is a common misunderstanding. The red book CDs are not files whilst those stored within a computer are. For CD tracks there is only one continuous stream of LPCM audio data and reading that via the flats and bumps on a CD via a laser is prone to errors. During the conversion of the LPCM stream to a computer file WAV, FLAC, ALAC etc the disk track may be read several times so as to extract the best and consistent read of the LPCM stream. The so called ripped track then may be a more accurate representation of what is actually on the CD. The stored files have to be converted back to an LPCM stream to be played back via a DAC.

In a CD player the LPCM stream comes straight off the CD and into an internal DAC so it gets one shot at reading the flats and bumps that produces the LPCM.

I remember following a discussion between CD mastering guys and the thrust was why if you recorded the same piece several times on the same CD they all sounded different. I don't remember any more as it was several years ago.

Cheers,

DV