Yep, that is about right. The Emperors new clothes.
High End Audio Sounds Crap!
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Yep, that is about right. The Emperors new clothes.
I don't think it's no better, I actually think much of it is worse!
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Sara, Kan, Index?
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
Why Live-versus-Recorded Listening Tests Don't Work
This is an interesting article http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html
Below is an extract for those that don't click on links:-
"Acoustic Research's Live-Versus-Recorded Demonstrations
During the 1960s, Acoustic Research (AR), an American loudspeaker company, performed over 75 live-versus-recorded concerts in cities around the USA featuring The Fine Arts String Quartet, and the AR-3 loudspeaker ]. To solve the double reverberation problem, the recordings of the quartet were made in an anechoic chamber, or outdoors. Outdoor live-versus-recorded demonstrations had the added benefit that there were no room reflections in either the recording or the live performance. This made the demonstrations less sensitive to off-axis problems in the microphones and loudspeakers. It also relaxed the demands on the recording-reproduction to accurately capture and reproduce the complex spatial properties of a reverberant performing space.
The AR demonstrations apparently generated an enormous amount of free publicity in newspapers and audio magazines where it was reported that the reproduction of the recordings was virtually indistinguishable from the live performance. AR sales increased dramatically, to the point where in 1966 AR apparently owned 32% market share of loudspeakers sold in the United States.
This is an interesting article http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html
Below is an extract for those that don't click on links:-
"Acoustic Research's Live-Versus-Recorded Demonstrations
During the 1960s, Acoustic Research (AR), an American loudspeaker company, performed over 75 live-versus-recorded concerts in cities around the USA featuring The Fine Arts String Quartet, and the AR-3 loudspeaker ]. To solve the double reverberation problem, the recordings of the quartet were made in an anechoic chamber, or outdoors. Outdoor live-versus-recorded demonstrations had the added benefit that there were no room reflections in either the recording or the live performance. This made the demonstrations less sensitive to off-axis problems in the microphones and loudspeakers. It also relaxed the demands on the recording-reproduction to accurately capture and reproduce the complex spatial properties of a reverberant performing space.
The AR demonstrations apparently generated an enormous amount of free publicity in newspapers and audio magazines where it was reported that the reproduction of the recordings was virtually indistinguishable from the live performance. AR sales increased dramatically, to the point where in 1966 AR apparently owned 32% market share of loudspeakers sold in the United States.
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
Isobariks aren't that accurate but they are very pleasing to listen to when with the right gear and that I think is the point of listening to music at home
Alan Brown
Registered LUser
I remember reading about this. There is probably a lot of material about it on the classic speaker pages site.
Interestingly, Roy Allison later saw the need to 'improve' Ed Vilchur's AR3 (the AR3a), although it was group tested as indistinguishable from a live event. The improved speakers was apparently a genuine refinement (I would love to own a set one day). I think Miles Davies later appeared in advertisements for the AR3a.
A lot of expectation is pinned on High End Audio and sometimes it cannot live up to that expectation.
Inexpensive stuff does not have much expectation or pride of ownership pinned to it so when it produces a nice noise its always going to make more of an impact on me anyway...
Most HiFi is more than fit for purpose and when I hear people complain about something sounding "broken" I nod -- having had that illness myself. Its a bad place to be.
Inexpensive stuff does not have much expectation or pride of ownership pinned to it so when it produces a nice noise its always going to make more of an impact on me anyway...
Most HiFi is more than fit for purpose and when I hear people complain about something sounding "broken" I nod -- having had that illness myself. Its a bad place to be.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
I've been to a couple of concerts in the last few days and gave this some thought.
It is all a bit odd when it comes to amplified concerts since you are hearing an electronic signal reproduced anyway.
My main thought is that you can't ignore the added realism and sense of being there you get by, well, being there.
Your brain is getting a ton of additional stimuli from sight and other senses.
Another observation: when I saw Owl City last night in London I could tell that the sound was distorting at times, especially the bass. Didn't matter much, there was still lots of energy and excitement. But in pure hi-fi terms sitting at home might have been better.
Finally, volume. Levels at a concert are much louder than you can normally get away with at home, even if your kit is able to reproduce it.
In other words, difficult to compare like with like.
Of course you can do a better comparison with, say, unamplified singer and acoustic guitar, or an orchestra.
Tim
It is all a bit odd when it comes to amplified concerts since you are hearing an electronic signal reproduced anyway.
My main thought is that you can't ignore the added realism and sense of being there you get by, well, being there.
Your brain is getting a ton of additional stimuli from sight and other senses.
Another observation: when I saw Owl City last night in London I could tell that the sound was distorting at times, especially the bass. Didn't matter much, there was still lots of energy and excitement. But in pure hi-fi terms sitting at home might have been better.
Finally, volume. Levels at a concert are much louder than you can normally get away with at home, even if your kit is able to reproduce it.
In other words, difficult to compare like with like.
Of course you can do a better comparison with, say, unamplified singer and acoustic guitar, or an orchestra.
Tim
Mescalito
pfm Member
That distorted bass is therfore the reality of the live experience in that place, at that time by that band. That is what a hi fi should be capable of reproducing.
Chris
loved the deep throbbing RFH of the room as Laurie Anderson set off the Room with the PA on Friday night. It would have most audiophiles running for their room correction and bits of foam sticking on the walls screaming "room mode, room mode" to a bass head it was just what the doctor ordered.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I agree. People get hung up on the sonic qualities and disregard the emotional ones. What I'm interested in is this: I want to play a CD of an artist and generate the same sort of emotional response to the music as I experienced when I went to the live gig. I don't care whether or not the system is faithful to the recording, or whether room modes are being excited, nor whether I can tell what brand of strings the guitarist is using, I want to be moved by the music like I was at the gig.
The closer I can get to that, the better the system is working for me. It may be that a better-measuring system will do that more often than a poorly-measuring one, or there may be no (or even an adverse) correlation. I'm not too bothered, if I'm honest. I just want that visceral response. If I get it, it's a good system, and bugger the numbers.
The closer I can get to that, the better the system is working for me. It may be that a better-measuring system will do that more often than a poorly-measuring one, or there may be no (or even an adverse) correlation. I'm not too bothered, if I'm honest. I just want that visceral response. If I get it, it's a good system, and bugger the numbers.
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
Stockton festival has just finished for another year, thank goodness.
Music played in the open air suffered from bass that overwhelms (boomy) the rest of the music. If this is what people want in their living rooms well good luck to them and their neighbours, me I like the "tight crisp bass" I hear in my room.
Moreover its what the people making the music want... (it played an important part of laurie anderson's concert) so its obviously something that is part of the performance. Who are we to remove it?
Most domestic systems I hear stuff on with tight crisp bass, simply have no frickin bass, if it cannot manage dub, its a non starter.
Most domestic systems I hear stuff on with tight crisp bass, simply have no frickin bass, if it cannot manage dub, its a non starter.
darrenyeats
pfm Member
I think the ideal is if you record boomy bass to get boomy bass and if you don't record boomy bass not to get boomy bass. It's called transparency! E.g. I don't want MY room modes, I want the recording venue's room modes.
I hear you about enjoying yourself and no-one is going to argue against that! (...?) No matter how unrefined, everyone loves big rigs that rock the house! This is a totally separate discussion to high fidelity though. Although IMO true hi-fi should ALSO be able to rock the house if the recording is designed for that!
Darren
I hear you about enjoying yourself and no-one is going to argue against that! (...?) No matter how unrefined, everyone loves big rigs that rock the house! This is a totally separate discussion to high fidelity though. Although IMO true hi-fi should ALSO be able to rock the house if the recording is designed for that!
Darren
Mescalito
pfm Member
Agree 100%. Saying you don't like "boomy" bass, certainly in the context of electric music, essentially says you don't like electric music the way it was made to be listened to.
But you are absolutely correct, for most people it is a moot point because their speakers just don't do it in the first place.
Chris
Mescalito
pfm Member
Eric van Spelde
Member
Exactly this. For studio records, insert 'when I heard it for the first time' or 'when I heard it in a club/on a rave/wedding party/whatever' for 'when I went to the live gig'. Although the experience of hearing a Rammstein cd on a suitable system probably is quite similar to hearing them 'live'.