I agree, the Wilson's sounded better than the Magicos. The Symmetry room with Maggies sounded better than both. The Kii Three's produced a wide soundstage, but as expected, very two dimensional, limited depth to the soundstage, but that's what you get with DSP.
Hi Fi news show Windsor 10th-11th nov
- Thread starter hifinutt
- Start date
I agree, the Wilson's sounded better than the Magicos. The Symmetry room with Maggies sounded better than both. The Kii Three's produced a wide soundstage, but as expected, very two dimensional, limited depth to the soundstage, but that's what you get with DSP.
I went along today
I also found that I enjoyed the small simple systems over the megabucks systems. Audionote demonstrated their entry level system, no fancy power or speaker cables and it sounded great. Plus they played Aphex Twin and Demon Fuzz (1970’s Jazz Rock) to Elgar’s Cello Concerto and also asked visitors if they had brought Lps along that they wished to try out.
The show seemed slightly smaller than last year and some demo rooms were up the far end of empty corridors.
I see for next year this show is planned to move to Ascot.
I also found that I enjoyed the small simple systems over the megabucks systems. Audionote demonstrated their entry level system, no fancy power or speaker cables and it sounded great. Plus they played Aphex Twin and Demon Fuzz (1970’s Jazz Rock) to Elgar’s Cello Concerto and also asked visitors if they had brought Lps along that they wished to try out.
The show seemed slightly smaller than last year and some demo rooms were up the far end of empty corridors.
I see for next year this show is planned to move to Ascot.
DNM
pfm Member
Which just about sums up your attitude really. Casework for the Gentry!
This show is nothing to do with me or the entry charging. In fact, I went today and paid the £22 and even had a go because of the lack of clarity on the cost of entry. In the HiFi News magazine they quote £20 but they were asking £22. Back in 2015 when I last took a room at this show, the word on the street was the show was trying to be exclusive by charging a higher entry fee, so don't shoot the messenger...
Did you make it to all the different zones, including the two zones in other buildings outside of the main complex?
Funnily enough, when I was in there (I went twice during the day), I experienced reasonable depth to the soundstage on the better recordings.
I thought the Symmetry room with the Maggies to be rather dull and flat.
The new Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII was another pleasant surprise today.
zzz
DNM
pfm Member
Ah, apologies GT, I'm not plugged into the word on the street. Perhaps the organisers thought all those bums hanging around the castle might make a beeline to the show to warm their derrieres on all that Class A amplification.
The highlight for me was the guitarist playing through Avantgard Accoustic Duo XD's?
Bit of a shame about those 1000w Class D DSP controlled 12" Woofers. As expected, very two dimensional, limited depth to the soundstage, but that's what you get with DSP.
DNM
pfm Member
Me neither but GT knows his onions. I think he used to be an Avantgarde dealer and now he's the UK distributor for Cessaro. Check out their latest C1 with active digital DSP crossovers. I guess we wont be seeing them in the UK market.
Me neither but GT knows his onions. I think he used to be an Avantgarde dealer and now he's the UK distributor for Cessaro. Check out their latest C1 with active digital DSP crossovers. I guess we wont be seeing them in the UK market.
The C1's were made exclusively for the Asian market by special request because room space is limited for the big horns.
Note: The XD electronics in the subwoofer is only working in the bass frequency range up to 200Hz. The midrange horn is driven directly from the owner's amplifier and the high-frequency horn is passively crossed in at 2000Hz.
Yes, G T Audio was the UK agent for Avantgarde Acoustic horns for 17 years and we exhibited with them at HiFi shows both here in the UK and in Germany from 1998 to 2003. There is a very good reason why they changed from the original subwoofer design to the XD design and SMPS and performance was not it!
FWIW I still own a pair of Gen 2 Duo Omegas...
DNM
pfm Member
I think there is a big difference between having DSP controlled bass drivers and having the entire frequency range DSP modified (which I think GT is getting at when he describes the sound of the Kii’s).
Outstanding guitarist
He was indeed an outstanding guitarist. Surprised he was a Brit.
I do realise what GT is trying to get at, he's espousing his usual dogma with regard to anything 'DSP'. With his constant dissing I get the impression he feels threatened by speakers like the Kii's.
Not threatened at all.
Just trying to add a bit of balance to the mix as most of the supporters of this type of product are salesman, not engineers.
Only the "positive" aspects are mentioned. Nothing is mentioned about:
1. Negative aspects of the technology with regard to sound quality, and there are many.
2. A lot of products sold today are about convenience and not about improving sound quality.
3. This type of tech goes out of date very quickly.
4. Product reliability with modern construction methods and the use of lead-free solder.
5. Can the product be supported (software wise) if the manufacturer goes out of business?
6. Can the product be repaired (hardware wise) if the manufacturer goes out of business?
The above is not new, it has been quoted many times on this forum previously by others.
FWIW I spent from 1985 to 2006 repairing virtually every brand of electronics both from the UK or imported into the UK, some officially and some not. Thankfully most could be fixed and supported because of the parts and construction used. This is not the case for most modern items made today. If you buy products like the Kii's (seeing as you mentioned this product) then prospective buyers should be aware that there are negatives which are never mentioned.
I have always found the best audio products taking into account the above are the ones that are simple in design, using as fewer parts as possible but putting parts quality and build quality at the top of the list.
Tony L
Administrator
I remain very curious as to how DSP bass works in a conventional system without adding obvious latency. I don’t see how you can split a signal, send half out in the normal way to the top and mid, and then send the bass through a computer and expect it to arrive at the same time! I know latency in the Kiis is sufficiently bad you have to turn most of the fancy DSP off to use them for live tracking, live mixing etc in a studio context.
This was the case with the Avantgarde Acoustic Zero XD when used in an AV system. You had to turn the latency to the minimum setting otherwise there was a lip sink problem. In doing this the audio resolution was significantly reduced.
topoxforddoc
pfm Member
One only needs to compare the life cycle of a pair of Devialet Phantoms (totally unservicable - can only be exchanged for new speakers) versus any classic electronic equipment made with high quality discrete components (anything from a vintage Quad/Leak/Radford/Dynaco amp to more modern TRON/AN/Puresound/ICON brands).
Tony L
Administrator
For me that is the distinction between proper hi-fi and consumer electronics. It annoys me enough that I have to view TVs, computers etc as consumables with a finite lifespan, I’d never be prepared to do that with audio kit.
sunbeamgls
pfm Member
I could understand a qualified statement along the lines of 'DSP as implemented by abc or xyz deilvers disappointments 1 2 and 3'. But a blanket condemning of the technology is misplaced.