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Has Sonos gone too far this time?

Tony L said:
I’m not saying things don’t become obsolete. I’m arguing for intelligent purchasing and to understand and predict which things swiftly become obsolete, which do not, and to not to buy combination products with potentially obsolete aspects built in.

A far more logical approach to streaming is to buy a really nice DAC, amp and speakers, as these are all old established technology with no lock-in or leasing model. No ability for a manufacturer to force obsolescence or even effectively brick kit you own. Far better to use a cheap SBC like a Raspberry Pi as the ‘streaming’ bit and you have something more powerful, not locked-in, and easily open to future streaming market changes as it is a widely compatible device that can run all manner of operating systems and future applications. It is a vastly more intelligent way of approaching things.
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Absolutely. There is a worrying trend to make products that require an app for full functionality. That might be OK whilst the manufacturer is updating the app to run on updated operating systems but what happens if they go bust or don’t support older products? We just end up with landfill. There’s a lot to be said for knobs, buttons and displays on equipment so that it can be used without an app and, importantly, in the way the purchaser who bought it chose.
 
I agreee
Tony L said:
I’m not saying things don’t become obsolete. I’m arguing for intelligent purchasing and to understand and predict which things swiftly become obsolete, which do not, and to not to buy combination products with potentially obsolete aspects built in.

A far more logical approach to streaming is to buy a really nice DAC, amp and speakers, as these are all old established technology with no lock-in or leasing model. No ability for a manufacturer to force obsolescence or even effectively brick kit you own. Far better to use a cheap SBC like a Raspberry Pi as the ‘streaming’ bit and you have something more powerful, not locked-in, and easily open to future streaming market changes as it is a widely compatible device that can run all manner of operating systems and future applications. It is a vastly more intelligent way of approaching things
Click to expand...
I agree it is far preferable to separate the streaming box from any audio components - but what is the control software that provides the equivalent experience to Sonos ? Genuine question because if I’ve missed it I’d change everything to the sort of layout you mention above.
 
Woodface said:
You have to look at the wider context though & this is where your argument falls flat. Sonos is a mass market product, its main target audience is ‘normal’ people who want something which sounds good & takes up little space.
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It doesn’t fall flat as I’m making it on a high-end audio site with a very clear green political agenda. pfm exists to promote a more intelligent and sustainable way of owning audio. I’m doing on this thread what I have done with this site for the past 25 years. If you haven’t grasped the nature of this site yet I obviously need to step it up a notch. Sonos and its ilk is everything pfm exists as a counterpoint to.

I accept some battles are lost. It is all but impossible to buy anything other than non-serviceable Chinese-made TVs, smartphones and computers as no one else makes them. Audio is not lost. We can still fight that one as it is a mature technology established a lifetime ago. As an example my TV “soundbar” is an Audio Synthesis passive preamp, a Quad 303 and a pair of Spendor S3/5R. Should I ever wish to sell it finding buyers would be easy as it is all highly desirable classic audio, and I’d make a profit on selling, so it is effectively free. Why would I want some nasty plastic landfill shit when that is the alternative?
 
mattjevans said:
I agreee

I agree it is far preferable to separate the streaming box from any audio components - but what is the control software that provides the equivalent experience to Sonos ? Genuine question because if I’ve missed it I’d change everything to the sort of layout you mention above.
Click to expand...

I’m assuming everyone already has a smartphone or a tablet. These are extraordinarily powerful IT devices we all rely on in our day to day lives and are technologically light-years ahead of anything any audio manufacturer could offer. They are the ideal control surface for a streaming solution and chances are you have one in your pocket right now. It makes no sense to duplicate that functionality. All the streaming services have apps (Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz etc), there are third-party universal apps (MConnect etc) so it is easy to communicate with a simple SBC (Pi etc) connected to a DAC assuming it is running an appropriate service.
 
Tony L said:
It doesn’t fall flat as I’m making it on a high-end audio site with a very clear green political agenda. pfm exists to promote a more intelligent and sustainable way of owning audio. I’m doing on this thread what I have done with this site for the past 25 years. If you haven’t grasped the nature of this site yet I obviously need to step it up a notch. Sonos and its ilk is everything pfm exists as a counterpoint to.

I accept some battles are lost. It is all but impossible to buy anything other than non-serviceable Chinese-made TVs, smartphones and computers as no one else makes them. Audio is not lost. We can still fight that one as it is a mature technology established a lifetime ago. As an example my TV “soundbar” is an Audio Synthesis passive preamp, a Quad 303 and a pair of Spendor S3/5R. Should I ever wish to sell it finding buyers would be easy as it is all highly desirable classic audio, and I’d make a profit on selling, so it is effectively free. Why would I want some nasty plastic landfill shit when that is the alternative?
Click to expand...
The thread is about Sonos. You are a massive outlier. I own 3 Sonos items & I think they are great at what they do; if you want a portable smart speaker then there isn’t really a traditional alternative.

Sonos products are well built, relatively expensive within their class so people do not throw them away. People just don’t want big Tannoys or multiple rooms filled with kit; we are all different.

Gen Z will probably just stick to listening on their phones & there’s little we can do about it.
 
Tony L said:
I’m assuming everyone already has a smartphone or a tablet. These are extraordinarily powerful IT devices we all rely on in our day to day lives and are technologically light-years ahead of anything any audio manufacturer could offer. They are the ideal control surface for a streaming solution and chances are you have one in your pocket right now. It makes no sense to duplicate that functionality. All the streaming services have apps (Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz etc), there are third-party universal apps (MConnect etc) so it is easy to communicate with a simple SBC (Pi etc) connected to a DAC assuming it is running an appropriate service.
Click to expand...
You ultimately get tied in one way or another though. Spotify have been very clever with their ‘Connect’ offering & people will probably only pay for one music service. Sonos is compatible with Connect & a lot of people will just bypass the Sonos app.

Pick your enemy, Sonos or Spotify ;)
 
Tony L said:
I’m assuming everyone already has a smartphone or a tablet. These are extraordinarily powerful IT devices we all rely on in our day to day lives and are technologically light-years ahead of anything any audio manufacturer could offer. They are the ideal control surface for a streaming solution and chances are you have one in your pocket right now. It makes no sense to duplicate that functionality. All the streaming services have apps (Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz etc), there are third-party universal apps (MConnect etc) so it is easy to communicate with a simple SBC (Pi etc) connected to a DAC assuming it is running an appropriate service.
Click to expand...

None of these offer the multi room control of the Sonos app. Obviously it is child’s play to control one simple streamer with one instance of Tidal. I want multi room coordination, including synchronisation. As far as I know, no other software does it - I will be delighted if someone presents me with something that does.
 
Sonos a few years ago did come out with a frankly awful press release threatening to brick their oldest products, most of which were 12-15 yrs old at the time.
After a substantial backlash they amended their plans & instead brought out an S1 app for the oldest stuff which wouldn’t receive updates, & the S2 app which is the current gold coloured one.
They also offered a trade in deal as an incentive to move to newer models.
Nothing to my knowledge has actually been bricked.
The new app was in preparation for the facilities such as hdmi arc, Bluetooth, Dolby atmos support etc for the coming line of new products, which the earliest models simply didn't have the capacity to manage.
Sonos are on the crossover point of Hifi & computers. You view them as Hifi & with the longevity that vintage Hifi can ( sometimes) have.
Or view them similar to a mobile phone, iPad or laptop, white goods, TV etc & accept that after 15 years or so, they might need replacing.
Sonos is still pretty much the best app out there, & the best way of getting multi-room music.
Yes Roon can do it but it costs.
 
Tony L said:
It doesn’t fall flat as I’m making it on a high-end audio site with a very clear green political agenda. pfm exists to promote a more intelligent and sustainable way of owning audio. I’m doing on this thread what I have done with this site for the past 25 years. If you haven’t grasped the nature of this site yet I obviously need to step it up a notch. Sonos and its ilk is everything pfm exists as a counterpoint to.

I accept some battles are lost. It is all but impossible to buy anything other than non-serviceable Chinese-made TVs, smartphones and computers as no one else makes them. Audio is not lost. We can still fight that one as it is a mature technology established a lifetime ago. As an example my TV “soundbar” is an Audio Synthesis passive preamp, a Quad 303 and a pair of Spendor S3/5R. Should I ever wish to sell it finding buyers would be easy as it is all highly desirable classic audio, and I’d make a profit on selling, so it is effectively free. Why would I want some nasty plastic landfill shit when that is the alternative?
Click to expand...
Well my TV “soundbar” is all operated by my TV remote control. When I press the power button on the remote, my TV powers up to it‘s main menu. When an audio is detected, my power amp automatically powers up and plays the audio through a pair of ATC SCM-7’s. The TV remote can also control the volume of the power amp or mute the sound. When I’m done watching TV, I press the power button on the remote and it powers off the TV and power amp.

BTW, the power amp also can stream music services, internet radio, play podcasts all controlled from my iPhone or iPad. I can power it on and off from the iPhone or iPad. I can also play records from my main system and also enjoy them with my “soundbar” all controlled from my iPhone or iPad.

My ”soundbar“ can also be grouped with another “soundbar” in another room and play in sync with separate volume controls along with a master control. These “soundbars” can play any of the above mentioned sources all at once without any dropouts or interruptions. When I’m done listening or have to turn it off for some reason, I can hit a button on any of my devices and turn all the other devices off, this can also be done from my iPhone or iPad as well.

Once you get accustomed to living with these items and enjoying the music they make, it’s hard to imagine compromising with a lesser convenient solution. I‘m currently getting spoiled with a pair of Apple AirPods Max which offer a similar experience with a more portable and personal solution. I’m finding them to be a great solution for certain parts of the day when I don’t want to disturb others sleeping or when I want to listen to music when there are loud sounds coming from the environment around me. The noise cancelling eliminates those exterior noise sources and allows me to enjoy music any time of day in or around my neighborhood.
 
mattjevans said:
None of these offer the multi room control of the Sonos app. Obviously it is child’s play to control one simple streamer with one instance of Tidal. I want multi room coordination, including synchronisation. As far as I know, no other software does it - I will be delighted if someone presents me with something that does.
Click to expand...
Bluesound.
 
John said:
I don’t believe you can stream a line source multi-room last time I looked into it.
Click to expand...
Streaming audio is more flexible than ever with the HUB. Turn any wired audio device into a multi-room player by adding a HUB to transmit music to one or many Bluesound players around the home, wirelessly. This means you can now stream virtually any audio source, anywhere.

  • Connect any wired audio source to the HUB to bring it into your Bluesound ecosystem
  • Stream your CD and vinyl collections anywhere in the house without being limited by wires or proximity
  • Low noise, wide-band moving magnet phono stage acts as a network turntable preamp for hi-res playback of vinyl
  • Use the HUB with a pair of Bluesound Pulse speakers to upgrade your TV sound
  • Enjoy five input options: HDMI eARC, Coaxial, Digital Optical, Stereo Analog and a moving magnet Phono stage to support your music devices
  • Play one analog and one digital stream simultaneously to different Bluesound or BluOS players
  • Easily choose any HUB input as the audio source for your Bluesound player with the BluOS app
  • Connect to the network with dual-band Wi-Fi or Gigabit ethernet
  • Universal USB-C plug and play power
www.bluesound.com

Bluesound HUB - Bluesound

Complete your Bluesound ecosystem with the HUB, a versatile network accessory that connects to a wide variety of audio sources, allowing them to play back on any Bluesound player. A simple setup process using the BluOS app to add a HUB to your Bluesound network, allows you to turn any wired...
www.bluesound.com www.bluesound.com
 
Some of the Bluesound stuff is very good. Some of their speakers sound better to me than the Sonos equivalents.
The app has improved a lot over the years but it still isnt as stable & as intuitive as the Sonos app.
And their stuff is a bit more expensive.
Taking on Tony’s point about Sonos being a counterpoint to everything the collective political agenda on here is,
Maybe it’s the equivalent of the Dual 505 turntable I bought back in the very early 80’s? A bit plasticky, probably most 505’s are in landfill by now, but it was a gateway for me into “proper” Hifi.
And maybe some Sonos buyers will eventually in turn graduate on to better quality products with the longevity we hope for.
So I’m a bit dubious about being too elitist about Sonos purely on the basis it wasn’t built out of everlastium in the 70’s.
Sonos can be a way of accessing music & tv sound in a stable & reliable way for a lot of people who would never want equipment racks, rats nests of cables & extension leads, valves & Christ know what else that the more purist Hifi enthusiasts live with.
 
John said:
I don’t believe you can stream a line source multi-room last time I looked into it.
Click to expand...
Ah well that’s a killer as well then. If I want to play vinyl on the main hifi I want the option to synchronise it to all other zones.

I’m astonished no one else has managed to offer a product that provides this flexibility.

Maybe Roon can but good luck explaining how to the wife and kids, it’s a 2 page explanation as far as I can see.
 
manicatel said:
Some of the Bluesound stuff is very good. Some of their speakers sound better to me than the Sonos equivalents.
The app has improved a lot over the years but it still isnt as stable & as intuitive as the Sonos app.
And their stuff is a bit more expensive.
Taking on Tony’s point about Sonos being a counterpoint to everything the collective political agenda on here is,
Maybe it’s the equivalent of the Dual 505 turntable I bought back in the very early 80’s? A bit plasticky, probably most 505’s are in landfill by now, but it was a gateway for me into “proper” Hifi.
And maybe some Sonos buyers will eventually in turn graduate on to better quality products with the longevity we hope for.
So I’m a bit dubious about being too elitist about Sonos purely on the basis it wasn’t built out of everlastium in the 70’s.
Sonos can be a way of accessing music & tv sound in a stable & reliable way for a lot of people who would never want equipment racks, rats nests of cables & extension leads, valves & Christ know what else that the more purist Hifi enthusiasts live with.
Click to expand...
I‘ve got two SONOS ZP80 from when they arrived in the UK, both still working, albeit I gave up on S1 and use Roon with them, must be 15 odd years old maybe older.

I bought a Dual 505 for the Mrs in March - £75 via Gumtree, working a treat :)
 
Amber Audio said:
Streaming audio is more flexible than ever with the HUB. Turn any wired audio device into a multi-room player by adding a HUB to transmit music to one or many Bluesound players around the home, wirelessly. This means you can now stream virtually any audio source, anywhere.

  • Connect any wired audio source to the HUB to bring it into your Bluesound ecosystem
  • Stream your CD and vinyl collections anywhere in the house without being limited by wires or proximity
  • Low noise, wide-band moving magnet phono stage acts as a network turntable preamp for hi-res playback of vinyl
  • Use the HUB with a pair of Bluesound Pulse speakers to upgrade your TV sound
  • Enjoy five input options: HDMI eARC, Coaxial, Digital Optical, Stereo Analog and a moving magnet Phono stage to support your music devices
  • Play one analog and one digital stream simultaneously to different Bluesound or BluOS players
  • Easily choose any HUB input as the audio source for your Bluesound player with the BluOS app
  • Connect to the network with dual-band Wi-Fi or Gigabit ethernet
  • Universal USB-C plug and play power
www.bluesound.com

Bluesound HUB - Bluesound

Complete your Bluesound ecosystem with the HUB, a versatile network accessory that connects to a wide variety of audio sources, allowing them to play back on any Bluesound player. A simple setup process using the BluOS app to add a HUB to your Bluesound network, allows you to turn any wired...
www.bluesound.com www.bluesound.com
Click to expand...
Have you personally streamed a line source to multiple rooms using Bluesound devices?
 
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