Has anyone bought a product because of a recommendation on ASR?

[Del monaco]

I like a system that is forgiving of variable recording, including the original production, pressing or both. I have neither the interest nor the finance to chase best recordings etc. so I work with what I have. On measurements, I worry that if I to become too focused on these this would potentially make the system fatiguing and sometimes unlistenable to me and I would become irritated by the unpredictability of what I may hear next. It was stated earlier that the aim of measurements was to get as near to the source recording as possible though source recordings are inherently variable. Alongside this, I tend to choose performance first. So my recordings are definitely variable, whether it is the original production, pressing or both.
My Yamaha 803D and LRS speakers provide the sound that I prefer and it is non-fatiguing, forgiving and consistent. I’ve moved some pieces in and out depending on their ability to not detract from the foundation sound I prefer. I have the Wiim Pro Plus that measures well according to ASR. It is the internal Dac that enables it to merge well in my system. It has a full sound and is less lean than others I have tried, the ESS especially. The A&R tuner, Rotel CD player and Denon Cassette deck don’t tip the applecart. For me, trialling products and allowing them time to settle in is key. Do they blend well? Will I achieve long term listening without fatigue? Does it change my preferred presentation too much?Will it ameliorate the variation in recording inherent in all formats? Will it suppress future uncertainties or niggles? Once I have achieved this I might be tempted to look at measurements out of curiosity and if something appears wildly out of kilter I will sit down and decide whether this impedes my enjoyment. If not, no problem.

 

[camverton]

Even though one can roughly predict the tonal balance of a speaker in a room from measurements (Erin's reviews prove that), one cannot predict the stereo effect produced by a given speaker in a particular room (I do think it is possible to use prior listening experience to ballpark the kind of effect one would expect from a certain speaker topology).

This is why I have been so vociferous against single-speaker listening, Harman's approach to speaker quality listening assessment (and was consequently banned).
Toole concluded that since narrow directivity dipoles (Quad ESL) scored badly when listened to solo but highly when listened in stereo then mono listening should be used for assessment because it shows more difference in the scoring of different speakers (more difference = better discrimination). Whilst I agree that this may provide a better insight into frequency response deviations and driver or cabinet resonances, it also fails as a means to determine the stereo-generating qualities/capabilities of a speaker - which obviously requires at least to speakers to function. Besides, no audiophile or 'focused' listener listens to music in mono.

Quite so. Why on earth would anyone test a product in a way in which it isn’t designed to be used? It sometimes seems that some folk get so wrapped up in their theories of what is correct that they lose sight of the wider picture. Interestingly the old Quad 57 does work OK as a single mono speaker but then again that was what it was designed for. Single Martin Logans at the other extreme sound dire, ime, when used singly. I once set up some of my speakers to decide which to use; Martin Logan Ascent, Quad 63 and Meridian dsp5500. For reasons of space and to save my back I hit on the idea of comparing just one of each. Big mistake! The Meridian sounded OK, the Quad a bit odd and the Logan dire.

Re omnis and dipoles, they are the opposite of cardioid speakers in one sense in that with omnis the room plays a huge part in the resulting sound but with cardioids much less so. This, I think, accounts for it being possible to reasonably well predict the sound of a cardioid speaker from measurements but difficult if not impossible with an omni. Obviously any weird non linearity of frequency response will give some clues.

 

[Hi Five]

No but I like his avatar.

 

[Tony L]

This is why I have been so vociferous against single-speaker listening, Harman's approach to speaker quality listening assessment (and was consequently banned).
Toole concluded that since narrow directivity dipoles (Quad ESL) scored badly when listened to solo but highly when listened in stereo then mono listening should be used for assessment because it shows more difference in the scoring of different speakers (more difference = better discrimination). Whilst I agree that this may provide a better insight into frequency response deviations and driver or cabinet resonances, it also fails as a means to determine the stereo-generating qualities/capabilities of a speaker - which obviously requires at least to speakers to function. Besides, no audiophile or 'focused' listener listens to music in mono.

The thing that I dislike so much about Toole’s Harman tests (which I view as an advertorial for Harman speakers) and also the formal ASR reviews etc is they all attempt to remove design intent. Walker, Klipsch, and all manner of more recent outliers (Shahinian, Magnapan, MBL etc etc) all understood exactly what they were doing, but created wildly different answers for different tastes and contexts. It is impossible to measure an LS3/5A, ESL, Klipschorn or MBL in the same way as they are all so different.

It is also highly arrogant to assume the great designers of the past didn’t fully understand things like dispersion, early reflections etc. PWK wrote papers on precisely this back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, the narrow dispersion of Klipshorns above bass frequencies is very deliberate and part of the design to use the room itself as the bass horn and focus the midband and top directly at the listener well ahead of room reflections.

So much of it just annoys me as in so many ways it is little more than “this is bad because it doesn’t measure well against my personal understanding of loudspeaker design” rather than actually looking at the underlying design intent.

 

[sq225917]

Yup, you can measure a speaker excluding the space it is designed to work in, but it tells you very little of how it might work in that space. I'd go so far as to say that Klippel is great for cardioid speakers, less so for box towers and almost no use at all for omni's. Unless you have a large perfectly treated room. I'm much more interested in the distortion and electrical numbers, Impedance, phase etc.

The same goes for headphone measurements, arriving at a frequency target from 1000s of tests doesn't give you the best FR balance. It just gives you an average that's likely to suit no one person. At best it's the least offensive FR, no more, no less. Personally I find it way off, mid sucked and bass heavy.

 

[Allan Probin]

Going back to electronics, I was comparing my Rega Elex with my Aethos (integrated amps) last night. The sound produced by the Aethos seemed weightier and more solid in the air. It also has a better sense of calm and effortlessness. What measurements would I look at that would account for these things?

 

[Del monaco]

Going back to electronics, I was comparing my Rega Elex with my Aethos (integrated amps) last night. The sound produced by the Aethos seemed weightier and more solid in the air. It also has a better sense of calm and effortlessness. What measurements would I look at that would account for these things?

Your subjective take is important as it’s what YOU hear in end that really matters.

 

[Steve 57]

It's a conundrum, I use open baffle speakers, and the room has little effect providing it's reasonably damped, ie carpet/ curtains so it not loudspeakers just types of loudspeakers?

 

[misterdog]

A mocking attitude towards all things subjective has attracted a substantial community of largely ignorant objectivists

They will measure terrible for sure. Mine fit your sound description as well. Reference sound though measured they will have a very poor rating.
Fortunately for me ratings mean nothing, actual sound does.

From an ASR poster with 16000 posts on that site.

 

[Allan Probin]

Your subjective take is important as it’s what YOU hear in end that really matters.

Exactly, so buying based on measurements alone is not a great idea. I was thinking about the differences I heard last night, and then I thought about this thread and did wonder if I’d stumbled across something that traditional measurements wouldn’t reveal. Certainly in my mind I didn’t think it was something that was likely to show up in frequency response or distortion measurements.

 

[Steve 57]

Going back to electronics, I was comparing my Rega Elex with my Aethos (integrated amps) last night. The sound produced by the Aethos seemed weightier and more solid in the air. It also has a better sense of calm and effortlessness. What measurements would I look at that would account for these things?

Thats a valid question snd one that's not accounted for in present measurement tests.
I'm sure measurements are a useful tool, but the circuit design and implementation are more important to stop the cancellation effects going on in the amplifier once a music signal is introduced

 

[Del monaco]

I like my newly acquired and ASR approved Wiim Pro Plus and it fill the Squeezebox gap nicely. The internal meshes with my system well. Do I like it more than my tuner, cd and vinyl player? No, but it does its job well enough and is near to my old Touch.

 

[MVV]

I like my newly acquired and ASR approved Wiim Pro Plus and it fill the Squeezebox gap nicely. The internal meshes with my system well. Do I like it more than my tuner, cd and vinyl player? No, but it does its job well enough and is near to my old Touch.

The Pro Plus is an absolute bargain. I haven't used my Turntable much at all since I got it. I've got thousands of quids worth of stuff and would be happy with some active AE1s and this thing, less than a grand for both if you go for some lightly used speakers.

 

[Del monaco]

The Pro Plus is an absolute bargain. I haven't used my Turntable much at all since I got it. I've got thousands of quids worth of stuff and would be happy with some active AE1s and this thing, less than a grand for both if you go for some lightly used speakers.

It’s a nice thing. Glad I took a punt.

 

[cruster]

Going back to electronics, I was comparing my Rega Elex with my Aethos (integrated amps) last night. The sound produced by the Aethos seemed weightier and more solid in the air. It also has a better sense of calm and effortlessness. What measurements would I look at that would account for these things?

The "how do I think this sounds" measurement is the most important. Measurements are not going to convey how something will sound to you, in your space, with your music. To me, ASR is an absolute joke. Reviews can be helpful - can be - when someone is using words to try to describe things like "weight" or "effortlessness", but even those are only guide posts (see previous comments re: "your space" and "your music"...and "your ears"). We don't listen to measurements, and I would wager that a lot of people don't even know how to properly interpret the results of same. Trust your ears.

 

[Somafunk]

The "how do I think this sounds" measurement is the most important. Measurements are not going to convey how something will sound to you, in your space, with your music. To me, ASR is an absolute joke. Reviews can be helpful - can be - when someone is using words to try to describe things like "weight" or "effortlessness", but even those are only guide posts (see previous comments re: "your space" and "your music"...and "your ears"). We don't listen to measurements, and I would wager that a lot of people don't even know how to properly interpret the results of same. Trust your ears.

Weight…effortlessness are useful descriptions? - how exactly?

I‘ve no problem with your decision to forgo measurements but crying ASR is an absolute joke is fanciful and our ears are not infallible.

But I guess we are on opposite sides of the fence, I figure Eric from Tekton shares the belief that “trust your ears“ is all that matters.

 

[cruster]

Weight…effortlessness are useful descriptions? - how exactly?

I‘ve no problem with your decision to forgo measurements but crying ASR is an absolute joke is fanciful and our ears are not infallible.

But I guess we are on opposite sides of the fence, I figure Eric from Tekton shares the belief that “trust your ears“ is all that matters.

I'd say "useful" might be overstating it but such descriptive terms do seem to convey "something" about the sound - however, your pushback on my assertion illustrates the/an issue, which is that everything is wide open to interpretation, and my "effortlessness" might not be YOUR "effortlessness" (or perhaps nothing at all to you). That's why I noted that reviews are really just a guidepost, and perhaps not a great one, unless you can identify a reviewer who shares your rough opinions on sound and music.

As for ASR, let me clarify - as an approach, I strongly disagree that measurements are the most important thing, and that we can tell what a component sounds like by simply looking at the numbers, but that's surely just a difference of perspective. I am not saying that approach is fundamentally "wrong"; though I disagree with it, I'm sure that people (you, for example) disagree with MY assertion that the only thing that matters is one's own ears...and that's great, and we can have a conversation about that.

What I find offensive about ASR is a) the few times I've wandered in there, it seems like there's a lot of needless toxicity - if you disagree with the numbers, you're terrible, your music is terrible, your wife is ugly, and you make your parents sad, and there is no discussion to be had, and b) I'm fairly certain that a bunch of guys posting on the internet do not know more than the folks who design hifi components for a living, but they will sure tell you that they do.

Is this everyone at ASR? Absolutely not - as with any forum, the most toxic members tend to also be the loudest. It seems like it's more prevalent there, though, than a lot of other places, and as such it's definitely not a place I want to spend any time.

 

[Allan Probin]

Weight…effortlessness are useful descriptions? - how exactly?

It doesn’t really matter if they are useful descriptions (to anybody else) or not. The point I was making really was that I heard differences and that’s how I would describe them in my own vocabulary but those kind of differences would be difficult or impossible to predict using traditional measurements

I’m not sure if you‘re denying I heard these differences because I’ve used vague subjective terms and therefore the science doesn’t have to explain them, but I’d be really interested to know what measurements would be useful for identifying what I heard.

 

[Steve 57]

I love it when measurements make you doubt your own ears.
Thats not to say that ears are perfect
But there good technical reasons why some amplifiers sound better than others..
It's just that those technical reasons dont come in the scope of published measurements

 

[Del monaco]

This is the point.
At the end of the chain you hear what you hear. Listening with expectations minimised as much as possible is a good starting point. Measurements, historical reputation and reviews can all inform expectation. Personally, I like to buy and try gear first. If I enjoy it, I won’t even look at measurements. If there seems to be a real stand out issue I might look at measurements but it is not a given. I’m not in this game for the best measuring gear. If it sits within acceptable tolerances that is just great. I’d be interested to see the data regarding how many of these ‘best measured’ products are bought then kept in a system. Cobbling together a system based solely on ASR measurements takes some control away that I wouldn’t be comfortable with. Like Amir is choosing my system.
I moved my Squeezebox Touch on because I was concerned about the longevity of the ecosystem and repair. The Wiim Pro Plus is its successor though I don‘t feel it is better. I always admired the Touch and in some ways it was my most coveted piece of gear.