Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
Interesting, but at least double the cost of the Gaia feet. Given my friend has already had good results with those, I suspect he'll likely lean in that direction again.
Hard to Drive the PMC MB2 SE?
- Thread starter Mike Hanson
- Start date
I have both the Gaia's and the Podiums in the larger sizes. I have found them both to be worthwhile upgrades, but in my room the Podiums are better by some way. A gentle prod reveals that they allow the speaker to move far more freely than the Gaia's.
I have the correct PMC stands for my BB5's, so it would be simple enough to insert Gaia's into the bottom of them. But I feel that the Podiums have enough of an advantage that I'm going to bother to make up some custom stands to support them and the speakers.
As a bonus this will also allow me to fine tune the height a little better for my setup and also build them specifically to house my monoblock amps underneath. Since they are too large to fit within the frame of the PMC stands.
I have the correct PMC stands for my BB5's, so it would be simple enough to insert Gaia's into the bottom of them. But I feel that the Podiums have enough of an advantage that I'm going to bother to make up some custom stands to support them and the speakers.
As a bonus this will also allow me to fine tune the height a little better for my setup and also build them specifically to house my monoblock amps underneath. Since they are too large to fit within the frame of the PMC stands.
I have a pair of the MB2 Studios. in a 17'x21' room. I think you would want a few hundred watt's for them. I currently use a Bryston 14SST2 and they still sound a little "light" at low volume. However that aside, they are an amazing loudspeaker. I shake my head every time i listen to music on them. One suggestion, my current sound anchor stands are 19" high, I would suggest a stand a little shorter, perhaps 14-16" high.
Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
He's waiting for a friend to help him get them into position, then he'll be able to test them. He's also noticed the stands are tall, so he may end up getting some shorter ones built.
Dark Turban
New Member
Hello All Fishies!
THE DISCLAIMER...
So I am the mystery guest, @Mike Hanson has been referring to. Be advised I have never ventured onto this forum before because I am strictly a listening enthusiast, not an SME - and so being fully evolved to live on land - any gills I might have had are entirely vestigial at this point. With that I will offer the disclaimer that my experiences shared will be entirely macro, so kid gloves in responding to the innocent newb is appreciated.
THE BACKSTORY...
Will spare you the long backstory except where it is relevant. The long and short of it is that I have been groping for nearly a quarter century now try to realize the sonic ideal that resides in my head. Not being eccentrically wealthy it has compelled me to try and make it there by buying things that punch above their weight. Unfortunately after making no end up minor incremental moves upwards I realized I would never reach the promised land that way and finally had to bite the bullet. Having a chain that I was very happy with it was time to pony up for great speakers and pay the piper for them.
My friend Mike was great to provide a second set of ears in my auditioning this past December. And after going to two shops I finally found the sound signature in a speaker that I was starting to think was perhaps pure psychosis...or myth. That was PMC. It did everything my particular aesthetic called for. The model that provided the eureka was the Fact 8s. (It's important to point out that we had brought the amp that Mike had built for me - AA SE 200, dual mono, 100Wx2 - and that match was excellent.) The only shortfall in the Fact 8s were that they were very anemic on the bottom end; this in a room almost the exact same dimensions as mine. The dealer who I've known for decades and who I trust was willing to make me a killer deal on the 8s and a sub coming in at my budget. This would have been a good solve, but my gutcheck was that I wanted a system where any potential added subwoofer would augment the bass frequencies, not be solely responsible for their delivery.
That had me looking at the Fact 12s - new and used. New was waaaay beyond my budget and used were nowhere to be found but across the pond in the UK. My looking continued and then I came across this pair of MB2 SEs in California for a price well under what new Fact12s would be. Now I am loathe to not audition before buying...let alone auditioning with one's own gear...let alone audition with one's own gear in one's own home. As such this was a pure foolish leap of faith - I own that. I made the gamble that the house sound of PMC would carry upwards into the MB2s and that it would be everything I appreciated exponentialized. And so I went for it.
It's worth pointing out that the dealer/friend warned me in advance that the AA would not likely capable of driving the MB2s satisfactorily and that I would almost certainly need a much beefier amp. Unfortunately the deal was well in motion at that point, flights booked, etc. and so I was already committed. It bares pointing out that said dealer LOVED the AA amp with the Fact 8s - he was incredibly impressed - and asked Mike if higher powered models were available. After I got them and returned back home said dealer said that I would soon realize why he warned me (he talked having sufficient damping factor among other things - so don't pounce on just that). He ended with that in his opinion the MB2s were some of the finest speakers he had ever heard...if properly driven and other customers who had purchased them in the past & had paired with sufficient power had fully borne that out.
THE PAYOFF...
I finally had a second set of hands to hoist these awkward 120 lb behemoths onto their stands a week ago. It was very quickly apparent that they were too high (that has already been discussed above and is in the process of being addressed). These are the optional 21" stands not the usual 14" and they put ear level at the woofer, not the acoustic centre of the mid as confirmed by PMC directly. But no matter for our purposes here.
So these speakers are indeed absolutely sumptuous. So effortless in their delivery of sonic information, so techically exacting, so musical, so real. They are entirely splendid in so many ways. BUT at normal listening levels...they sound choked off...starved. There's no boogie factor/toe tapping, no visceral engagement, no excitement, no dynamic fireworks - everything is button down'ed. Very WAF, very dinner party, very background music-esque.
I did no end of fiddling with the other components to try and coax them out of their shell, but it was not forthcoming. The only solve at present is to take them well beyond normal listening levels. Only when I have them pumping out at 85-90 dbs (level recorded) did they seem to really wake up. When I did that they were incredibly impressive. The only remaining deficiency with that is that even at those levels the grip on the rhythm still isn't there either yet. Playing songs well known to me to be cracking, get down on the dance floor, white man overbite, funk face extravaganzas - were simply pleasant to senses and not much more. Now right away, listening at 85-90 dbs is completely auditorily untenable for other than short periods of time, so I surely cannot reside here - nor is any sound system of any utility, that only can do that.
And that's where we are. For further reinforcing, recall that I said the SE200s and Fact8s were a tremendous match & remember that the dealer wanted to know what the heck this piece of kit was. Also note that my current system with the SE200 & my old speakers (Vandersteen 2CE Sig IIIs) completely satisfied the shortfalls directly cited above (albeit with too many of their own shortcomings which prompted the mandatory need to upgrade).
With that I am quickly coming to the realization that I am going to have little choice but to upgrade the amp with something that has significantly bigger power reserves / ability to adequately deliver at all listening levels / etc. / etc. And here's where you see the macro in the end user showing as I don't know what I am going to have chase in a replacement...absolute wattage / damping factor / sufficient power at low ohm levels / et al.
For a high level refresher...I haven't found any testing data that I can provide here other than what I gleaned in a review ("The MB2 is a claimed 90 dB/Wm efficient and presents a very fair eight Ohm load, dipping only to5.9 Ohms at 110 Hz.")
Impedance: 8 Ohm nominal
Sensitivity: 90dB
Recommended Amp Power: 10 - 500W
I welcome people's thoughts on the matter. Thanks for reading.
THE DISCLAIMER...
So I am the mystery guest, @Mike Hanson has been referring to. Be advised I have never ventured onto this forum before because I am strictly a listening enthusiast, not an SME - and so being fully evolved to live on land - any gills I might have had are entirely vestigial at this point. With that I will offer the disclaimer that my experiences shared will be entirely macro, so kid gloves in responding to the innocent newb is appreciated.
THE BACKSTORY...
Will spare you the long backstory except where it is relevant. The long and short of it is that I have been groping for nearly a quarter century now try to realize the sonic ideal that resides in my head. Not being eccentrically wealthy it has compelled me to try and make it there by buying things that punch above their weight. Unfortunately after making no end up minor incremental moves upwards I realized I would never reach the promised land that way and finally had to bite the bullet. Having a chain that I was very happy with it was time to pony up for great speakers and pay the piper for them.
My friend Mike was great to provide a second set of ears in my auditioning this past December. And after going to two shops I finally found the sound signature in a speaker that I was starting to think was perhaps pure psychosis...or myth. That was PMC. It did everything my particular aesthetic called for. The model that provided the eureka was the Fact 8s. (It's important to point out that we had brought the amp that Mike had built for me - AA SE 200, dual mono, 100Wx2 - and that match was excellent.) The only shortfall in the Fact 8s were that they were very anemic on the bottom end; this in a room almost the exact same dimensions as mine. The dealer who I've known for decades and who I trust was willing to make me a killer deal on the 8s and a sub coming in at my budget. This would have been a good solve, but my gutcheck was that I wanted a system where any potential added subwoofer would augment the bass frequencies, not be solely responsible for their delivery.
That had me looking at the Fact 12s - new and used. New was waaaay beyond my budget and used were nowhere to be found but across the pond in the UK. My looking continued and then I came across this pair of MB2 SEs in California for a price well under what new Fact12s would be. Now I am loathe to not audition before buying...let alone auditioning with one's own gear...let alone audition with one's own gear in one's own home. As such this was a pure foolish leap of faith - I own that. I made the gamble that the house sound of PMC would carry upwards into the MB2s and that it would be everything I appreciated exponentialized. And so I went for it.
It's worth pointing out that the dealer/friend warned me in advance that the AA would not likely capable of driving the MB2s satisfactorily and that I would almost certainly need a much beefier amp. Unfortunately the deal was well in motion at that point, flights booked, etc. and so I was already committed. It bares pointing out that said dealer LOVED the AA amp with the Fact 8s - he was incredibly impressed - and asked Mike if higher powered models were available. After I got them and returned back home said dealer said that I would soon realize why he warned me (he talked having sufficient damping factor among other things - so don't pounce on just that). He ended with that in his opinion the MB2s were some of the finest speakers he had ever heard...if properly driven and other customers who had purchased them in the past & had paired with sufficient power had fully borne that out.
THE PAYOFF...
I finally had a second set of hands to hoist these awkward 120 lb behemoths onto their stands a week ago. It was very quickly apparent that they were too high (that has already been discussed above and is in the process of being addressed). These are the optional 21" stands not the usual 14" and they put ear level at the woofer, not the acoustic centre of the mid as confirmed by PMC directly. But no matter for our purposes here.
So these speakers are indeed absolutely sumptuous. So effortless in their delivery of sonic information, so techically exacting, so musical, so real. They are entirely splendid in so many ways. BUT at normal listening levels...they sound choked off...starved. There's no boogie factor/toe tapping, no visceral engagement, no excitement, no dynamic fireworks - everything is button down'ed. Very WAF, very dinner party, very background music-esque.
I did no end of fiddling with the other components to try and coax them out of their shell, but it was not forthcoming. The only solve at present is to take them well beyond normal listening levels. Only when I have them pumping out at 85-90 dbs (level recorded) did they seem to really wake up. When I did that they were incredibly impressive. The only remaining deficiency with that is that even at those levels the grip on the rhythm still isn't there either yet. Playing songs well known to me to be cracking, get down on the dance floor, white man overbite, funk face extravaganzas - were simply pleasant to senses and not much more. Now right away, listening at 85-90 dbs is completely auditorily untenable for other than short periods of time, so I surely cannot reside here - nor is any sound system of any utility, that only can do that.
And that's where we are. For further reinforcing, recall that I said the SE200s and Fact8s were a tremendous match & remember that the dealer wanted to know what the heck this piece of kit was. Also note that my current system with the SE200 & my old speakers (Vandersteen 2CE Sig IIIs) completely satisfied the shortfalls directly cited above (albeit with too many of their own shortcomings which prompted the mandatory need to upgrade).
With that I am quickly coming to the realization that I am going to have little choice but to upgrade the amp with something that has significantly bigger power reserves / ability to adequately deliver at all listening levels / etc. / etc. And here's where you see the macro in the end user showing as I don't know what I am going to have chase in a replacement...absolute wattage / damping factor / sufficient power at low ohm levels / et al.
For a high level refresher...I haven't found any testing data that I can provide here other than what I gleaned in a review ("The MB2 is a claimed 90 dB/Wm efficient and presents a very fair eight Ohm load, dipping only to5.9 Ohms at 110 Hz.")
Impedance: 8 Ohm nominal
Sensitivity: 90dB
Recommended Amp Power: 10 - 500W
I welcome people's thoughts on the matter. Thanks for reading.
gez
pfm Member
Well 2x100W is good for around about 113dBA peak with those speakers. Playing them at 85-90dBA nominal likely means peaks somewhere just north of 100dBA. So there is still a bit of steam left in the amps. Even a 2x200W amp would only be able to get another 3dBA max (116dBA) out of the speakers (presuming they're capable of that kind of output that is - which is not a given even for "studio" speakers). But I suspect it's the amplifiers current capablity (or shortfall of it) that may be the cause of your dissatisfaction. But I know nothing about the amps, so that's a pure guess. Certainly a well designed 2x 200W amp will be capable of delivering twice the current (of an equally well designed 2x 100W amp), and whilst it's the amplifiers output voltage in to the impedance of the speaker that creates the current draw, it's the (changing) current in the coil of the speaker that actually makes the drive units move.
Given the speakers are now in place, and this was the tricky bit, I think the amp problem is resolved much more easily by auditioning contenders at home. I don't think you are struggling with power with your existing amps, given their sensitivity, and you aren't complaining about background hiss, so the only other problem they may have would be the damping factor? It's a guess, and some people seem to be very sensitive to it and feel it makes a massive difference to the 'control' of the drivers, so maybe you have an over-damped system giving a sterile feel, and something a bit more relaxed might be the difference you are looking for?
The other suggestion would be to reach out to PMC and ask them for a recommended amp for low power listening in a domestic setting - they'll have suggestions i'm sure. They have been very helpful when i've contacted them about queries about my PMC speakers, and have always offered me sensible pragmatic advice which makes sense given their studio heritage.
And best of luck with the search, sounds like you are 95% of the way there.
The other suggestion would be to reach out to PMC and ask them for a recommended amp for low power listening in a domestic setting - they'll have suggestions i'm sure. They have been very helpful when i've contacted them about queries about my PMC speakers, and have always offered me sensible pragmatic advice which makes sense given their studio heritage.
And best of luck with the search, sounds like you are 95% of the way there.
Timcat
pfm Member
Dark Turban,
I have iB2SE speakers, which share the same tweeters and mid range drivers with the MB2SE. The bass drivers are smaller in the iB2SE and it also has a nominal impedance of 4 ohms not 8. I drive them with a Bryston 4B3 (300W into 8 ohms, 500 W into 4 ohms) and I can confirm that they are excellent at both high and, crucially, low levels. I suggest, therefore, that you give a Bryston power amp a try.
The other important issue is that the studio based larger PMC speakers (iB2 SE, MB2 SE etc.) produce prodigious amounts of bass and, therefore, can easily excite room resonances, leading to muddy bass and masked fine detail, even at low levels. I had this issue initially when I installed my PMCs in place of the B&Ws that preceded them. I cured this with room treatments involving corner located bass traps and carefully located acoustic panels (sound absorbing) and diffusers. The bass is now firm, deep and controlled. I noticed from your photos that you do not appear to have any room treatment installed behind your speakers. You might want to try installing some panels and bass traps behind your speakers. Fortunately, these are not too costly, at least compared to large PMC speakers!
I have iB2SE speakers, which share the same tweeters and mid range drivers with the MB2SE. The bass drivers are smaller in the iB2SE and it also has a nominal impedance of 4 ohms not 8. I drive them with a Bryston 4B3 (300W into 8 ohms, 500 W into 4 ohms) and I can confirm that they are excellent at both high and, crucially, low levels. I suggest, therefore, that you give a Bryston power amp a try.
The other important issue is that the studio based larger PMC speakers (iB2 SE, MB2 SE etc.) produce prodigious amounts of bass and, therefore, can easily excite room resonances, leading to muddy bass and masked fine detail, even at low levels. I had this issue initially when I installed my PMCs in place of the B&Ws that preceded them. I cured this with room treatments involving corner located bass traps and carefully located acoustic panels (sound absorbing) and diffusers. The bass is now firm, deep and controlled. I noticed from your photos that you do not appear to have any room treatment installed behind your speakers. You might want to try installing some panels and bass traps behind your speakers. Fortunately, these are not too costly, at least compared to large PMC speakers!
Dark Turban
New Member
@gez @Colin L @Cesare @Timcat
Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions so far and for taking the time to weigh in. I appreciate your opinions & counsel and will definitely use them to inform my position.
Not much above requires my added reply at this early stage - only further observations shared. Additional listening at normal volumes for most of the afternoon yesterday definitely reinforced my initial assess. Fabulous speakers, acoustically/technically perfect (so far as I can tell), beautiful & highly musical...but at this level, decidedly unexciting and very little engagement with the pace & rhythm of albums (regardless of genre) that I know absolutely possess it. A great example yesterday was the subject matter (not talking recording quality) of Ahmad Jamal's - Pittsburgh. His Steinway sounds as well represented on the PMCs as one could ask for but a couple songs that almost border on schmaltz in my old setup wound up fully across & into the schmaltzy DMZ with the currently amplified MB2s.
Metered milquetoast. (And related to same, not sounding nimble and quick either.)
Anyway, future plans are to get the stands sorted and add in the Gaias as I find they do lens the exactitude factor nicely. That said fine detail seems to be quite good although not stupendous. Perspective is important in my assess here - I've taken a huge leap up in overall quality making any rendering of said detail (as well as all other sonic qualities) subjectively perceive as better in these early honeymoon hours. While I personally haven't noticed muddy bass when those frequencies are delivered in my limited listening thus far, that doesn't mean it's not masking fine detail - so that's a helpful observation. It will be part of the fine tuning process once amplification, mounting & placement is sorted.
Taken together, the fact that there's broad agreement here in the direction of how to improve my situation is in itself a help. Hope to get further thots from the PFM-verse and then take it forward. Thx all, keep'em coming.
Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions so far and for taking the time to weigh in. I appreciate your opinions & counsel and will definitely use them to inform my position.
Not much above requires my added reply at this early stage - only further observations shared. Additional listening at normal volumes for most of the afternoon yesterday definitely reinforced my initial assess. Fabulous speakers, acoustically/technically perfect (so far as I can tell), beautiful & highly musical...but at this level, decidedly unexciting and very little engagement with the pace & rhythm of albums (regardless of genre) that I know absolutely possess it. A great example yesterday was the subject matter (not talking recording quality) of Ahmad Jamal's - Pittsburgh. His Steinway sounds as well represented on the PMCs as one could ask for but a couple songs that almost border on schmaltz in my old setup wound up fully across & into the schmaltzy DMZ with the currently amplified MB2s.
Metered milquetoast. (And related to same, not sounding nimble and quick either.)
Anyway, future plans are to get the stands sorted and add in the Gaias as I find they do lens the exactitude factor nicely. That said fine detail seems to be quite good although not stupendous. Perspective is important in my assess here - I've taken a huge leap up in overall quality making any rendering of said detail (as well as all other sonic qualities) subjectively perceive as better in these early honeymoon hours. While I personally haven't noticed muddy bass when those frequencies are delivered in my limited listening thus far, that doesn't mean it's not masking fine detail - so that's a helpful observation. It will be part of the fine tuning process once amplification, mounting & placement is sorted.
Taken together, the fact that there's broad agreement here in the direction of how to improve my situation is in itself a help. Hope to get further thots from the PFM-verse and then take it forward. Thx all, keep'em coming.