Very useful comparisons thank you. I have been considering DeVore O96 speakers: any chance you have heard them to compare to the Graham LS5/9 or LS5/8 ?
Last edited:
Harbeth and Graham and Focal, oh my . . .
- Thread starter plimpington2
- Start date
Very useful comparisons thank you. I have been considering DeVore O96 speakers: any chance you have heard them to compare to the Graham LS5/9 or LS5/8 ?
Hi Ayya,
Thanks for the response. Much appreciated. Yes I own the SHL5 Plus. It's certainly useful to have replies from both you and the OP as the description on the sonic differences or character of both speakers appears to be fairly similar based on my interpretation. The only difference is you still find the SHL5+ to sound great albeit different from the LS5/9, whereas the OP was quite disappointment with the Harbeth.
I think I may have an idea how the LS5/9 would sound like as your description and the OP's have pretty much nailed it. The Harbeth is inherently less "lit" when compared to more forward and detailed speakers out there. It's good to know that the Graham LS5/9's treble is brighter and more sparkly than the SHL5 Plus without sounding excessively bright. I suspect the treble of the LS5/9 to have a certain rawness to it when compared to the smoother and less sparkly treble of the SHL5 Plus which some may associate as dullness.
tuga
Legal Alien
My former 3-way speakers had a very even off-axis reponse (1" tweeter crossed over from a 4" mid at 1.8kHz) thanks to the use of waveguides and small diametre mid:
But I prefer my current speakers (8.6" woofer to 1" tweeter at 3k) with a relaxed off-axis dispersion in the "presence" region (where the ear is most sensitive) because the listening room is quite small and the side walls are not "treated":
Research by the BBC concluded that the latter was subjectively more adequate/neutral:
I do my serious listening on-axis but often sit in one of the side walls when reading and the balance is not objectionable...
Rockmeister
pfm Member
I think I'd have Spendor and Sonus Faber on my audition list as well.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
A shame that this demo didn't use some more dynamic amps. We already said on a previous thread that there was no way the Leben could drive Harbeths dynamically, although it can indeed produce exquisite vocals. I heard the M30.1 with an Accuphase once at a dealers. I believe it was the top Accuphase integrated and very expensive. Polite was exactly the word. Very refined, but without guts and purpose. At the time I thought; ah yes, that must be why I sold the M30.1. But I was misled by the Accuphase. In fact with my Unico Pre and DM (160 misfit/valve hybrid), they were much more vivid and purposeful. But, and this is crucial, they only had this sense of purpose in a near-field set-up. They are slighltly hooded in the presence region, so will appear polite when positioned in a larger space, further from the listener. I'd be interested to see comparative measurements with the Graham LS5/9. Do the Grahams have a flatter presence region, perhaps?
I actually sold the M30.1 because I wanted more bass, although in retrospect it would have been worth trying a sub, since they do roll off pretty steeply at 50Hz, and integration might have been achievable. However I've just sold my SHL5Plus because they were too big, so I can't win. I've realised that my room is Compact 7 sized room. When I've heard the LS5/9 I've thought it was very lacking in bass, but perhaps it would also be a good candidate for use with a sub.
I actually sold the M30.1 because I wanted more bass, although in retrospect it would have been worth trying a sub, since they do roll off pretty steeply at 50Hz, and integration might have been achievable. However I've just sold my SHL5Plus because they were too big, so I can't win. I've realised that my room is Compact 7 sized room. When I've heard the LS5/9 I've thought it was very lacking in bass, but perhaps it would also be a good candidate for use with a sub.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Yes, and if you look at the Geithain website, for example, they are very precise about the kind of listening distance each speaker is designed for. WIth 'hi-fi' speakers we tend to waste a lot of time faffing around and buying and selling stuff before we work these things out!
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
I referred to the MB-1, not MB-5, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? For what it's worth, I don't need graphs and the like to judge what I like and prefer. Long experience and actually listening to speakers, rather than graphs, does it for me.
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
ls 5/9 lacking in bass? not so: id understand if you were to say lacks extension.. they are bit bass boosted under 100hz actually and when well positioned they extend to 35hz in my room at the listening position.
when comparing directly to the shl5+ the difference in extension can be heard but its subtle. but honestly the quality of the bass makes me forget about the lack of extension between 20 to 40hz.
about the presence region, the ls5/9 have a bbc dip of about -3db between 1.6 to 3khz
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
sorry only heard the devore 093. good speakers as well but we preferred the p3 in the mids and highs, was a really fast audition so take this with agrain of salt
Ill try again this week to do deeper comparison between my shl5+ and ls5/9. im in no rush to sell either pair and might keep both with a friend and exchange the speakers once in a while.
tuga
Legal Alien
I wasn't contesting your personal preferences, merely conveying information regarding the measured performance of a speaker from the same line (same drivers, crossover frequency), something which I personally find more useful to others than a taste-driven opinion.
Thanks for that.
From two experiences here, I appreciate that the Graham LS5/9 is inherently a more lively speaker than the Harbeth SHL5 Plus which in comparison sounds more closed or shut-in with a less sparkly treble. Throughout my 7 years experience with the older Harbeth SHL5 and 1+ year with the SHL5 Plus (how time flies), I have to say that the type of amplifier has a rather significant contribution to sound quality though in the OP's case I would still think that the Grahams have worked out better to his listening taste or preferences.
Although the Leben CS300 may be underpowered in driving the SHL5 Plus, it is by no means a dull sounding amp. As a matter of fact, the treble on the Leben is very sparkly when compared to most solid-state amps out there, an overall more transparent design. With vocals and mellow music played at low to moderate volume, the Leben-Harbeth combination would work out well. Having said that, I have to agree with few comments on the benefits or suitability of a more powerful amp to deliver the macrodynamics or dynamic swings in music for an overall more balanced performance at all levels. It's not all about power too but the type as the SHL5 Plus or non-Plus can sound quite dull or lacklustre with most amps, further exacerbated when combined with a dull-sounding source/DAC in my experience. My Harbeth SHL5 Plus currently sounds very engaging - lively with a rather sparkly treble. They certainly don't sound dull to my ears. I am using Naim NAC 282 / NAP 250 DR to drive the SHL5 PLus and it sounds a whole lot fun. The drive and bass punch in music are excellent and I attribute this liveliness to the Naim amps. The sparkle in the treble is somewhat contributed by the Chord QBD76 DAC. Prior to the Chord I was using a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC and music surely sounded dull with that one. Dull and flat. Sometimes, it's the combination as a whole that makes all the difference apart from setup and the room.
I am not advocating the Naim or Chord that I am currently using with the Harbeth as I an aware there are folks who have obtained better results with other amps such as Sonneteer, LFD etc. I also understand that the SHL5 Plus will sound "relatively" dull with less sparkle in the treble when it is compared to more forward or livelier speakers. The point I am conveying here is on my experiences above, and the possibility that a less-than-stellar sounding Harbeth speaker may be caused by setup issues or the components that are connected to it.
Interesting that you have sold your SHL5 Plus. I thought the speakers could still fit in your room but nothing beats personal experience.
I will have the SHL5 PLus in a much smaller room sometime next year and I hope they would still work in the smaller space.
I don't think it is just a BBC badge. The Graham looks to have better quality construction. The Harbeth C7 would be in that comparison.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
My room is very awkward due to the positioning of two doors, which makes it very difficult indeed to set up a near-field listening triangle. I found that the SHL5Plus were spectacular when I got then into a near-field triangle, pulling them far out in to the room. However I couldn't leave them in that position, since they were vulnerable to being bashed by a door opening. I considered a set up where I pulled them in to the room for intensive listening, then pushed them back after the session, but after a week I realised that was just too much trouble. So sadly I decided to part with them soon after I'd found their optimum position. I'm really just writing this to say that they can work extremely well in a small to medium room, but I think you need to give them the space they want to hear their best. It's also worth pointing out that I know of others with smaller rooms than mine who are delighted with the 5Plus; for example Alan B on the Wam, who has them firing across his room on either side of a bay window. This was another position that I was denied because of the placement of my other door. Doors, damn them all, is my conclusion.
Tuga - I for one appreciate your information on measured performance. Though I hasten to add that much of such ‘raw’ information goes over my head, and I am therefore grateful when others, like you, are able to add comments to suggest what effects the numbers are likely to point to, in usage. I’d like to try to understand what is going on behind what I’m hearing, and it might then help in narrowing down any ‘quest‘ for what I’m after.
I’ve always sought ‘neutrality’ and fatigue free listening at volume levels which do justice to the type of music I’m listening to. There may be different perceptions of neutrality, but in my case, the relatively recent realisation is that measurements can point to kit which is going to best reproduce the original signal without adding or subtracting anything.
On the other thread started by plimpington2, there was a post of a YouTube vid comparing Harbeth SHL5plus and 30.1 using a Dire Straits track. I have that album, though I haven’t listened to it for about 20 years. There’s not much dynamic range in the track used, and to me the sound was flat, smooth, both speakers sounding the same (sure, the limitations of the sound from the video wouldn’t have helped), but probably neutral (true to the recording). If that was the type of music I mainly listened too, I might want kit that would add some life and ‘rawness’ to it, akin to a live rock performance perhaps. ’Benign distortion’ on rock music might add to the ‘realness’ of the sound, but personally, for the type of music I now mainly listen to, I don’t want that. So, I am interested in measured performance, or at least the comments from those who can provide some interpretation of it for me! Cheers.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Please, let's not judge speakers based on a Youtube video!