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H&F Transformers - Sound quality differences

P

PaulJ

pfm Member
Hi,

I have recently upgraded my Nait2 to an Olive 52/Supercap/250 running late Isobariks. My first impressions were a little deflated. Generally, the upgrade is a much better sound; Bass has more impact and grip, vocals are cleaner, separation is better and much clearer. I can hear more detail and nuances in percussion, which was already pretty good on the Nait.

There are certain qualities to the Nait2 sound which I miss. More noticable in ambient music with deep slowly evolving textures. The Nait2 to me seems to accentuate the nuances and gives a very rich and flowing feel.

I have heard similar comments to this when people have compared the H&F transformers which went out of production in 1993. I am wondering if the qualities I prefer are down to the H&F transformers. My new Olive setup is 94/95 after the change.

Would like to hear from others who have owned amps with H&F and without to hear their experience and preference with the sound.

I will probably move on from this setup, but wondering if I should look at early Olive gear, or at newer black 300/500.

I have auditioned a 300 before DR, I liked it, but there was a certain quality to vocals and piano sounds I preferred on my Nait. My "new" olive setup still has those qualities.

Paul
 
Just to add, I have been listening to "Atmos by A Winged Victory For The Sullen", this album shows up the differences more than other tracks I have played, I have also listed to this played live in December. To me the Nait is closer to the Live performance, the bass is more accentuated; the 250 is a cleaner sound, but bass is thinner. I know that is a bit subjective when the sounds are mainly generated electronically.

Paul
 
PaulJ said:
Hi,

I have recently upgraded my Nait2 to an Olive 52/Supercap/250 running late Isobariks. My first impressions were a little deflated. Generally, the upgrade is a much better sound; Bass has more impact and grip, vocals are cleaner, separation is better and much clearer. I can hear more detail and nuances in percussion, which was already pretty good on the Nait.

There are certain qualities to the Nait2 sound which I miss. More noticable in ambient music with deep slowly evolving textures. The Nait2 to me seems to accentuate the nuances and gives a very rich and flowing feel.

I have heard similar comments to this when people have compared the H&F transformers which went out of production in 1993. I am wondering if the qualities I prefer are down to the H&F transformers. My new Olive setup is 94/95 after the change.

Would like to hear from others who have owned amps with H&F and without to hear their experience and preference with the sound.

I will probably move on from this setup, but wondering if I should look at early Olive gear, or at newer black 300/500.

I have auditioned a 300 before DR, I liked it, but there was a certain quality to vocals and piano sounds I preferred on my Nait. My "new" olive setup still has those qualities.

Paul
Click to expand...

You need a pair of 135s.....


Ps I owned a 52 with a 250 and 135s and isobariks and I also still own a Nait 2


The 52/ 135 combo is one made in heaven......completely different presentation to a 250

Simon
 
PaulJ, my experience has been exactly as you describe. I have my choice between a 72/140 h&f and a later model 52/250, and I easily prefer the former.
 
Thanks for the replies, my Nait 2 is Olive, but very early. I bought it in 1989, the dealer just set up his first delivery of the Olive range.

Paul
 
I think Naim themselves say there is absolutely nothing in this H&F fetish.

I had a CB Nait 2 for several years with a H&F transformer. It was great. Was it anything like the equal of the 252/SC/135s I had before it? Um,no.
 
To my ears the H&F transformer sounds darker. I’ve had a few older Naim amps and two NAP 250s. One with the H&F and one with the later transformer and I preferred the earlier ones.
 
I've never compared 250's with / without H&F transformers, but my olive 250 apparently has one.
I found this out when it was serviced by Naim and Sheila in the service department commented that it was an early olive unit and so had the "mellower" transformer.
 
What the OP has done is to validate *why* those Nait 1/2s now cost multiples of what they did new. He is not the first person to notice that there was not a lot between one of those Naits and a 52/250, apart from the latters ability to play at somewhat higher volumes and drive harder loads.

I never was much of a fan of the 250 and many of its weaknesses were addressed with the (almost identical) 135s. The 52 is a superb preamp...but for some reason I have preferred it running into 110, 140 and 135 more than I did into a 250.

Running a 52 actively with multiple 250s however is a different proposition.
My advice would be either to return to 52/250 to the used market and use those funds to have the Nait serviced, or to realize that what you really need are a pair of 135s, of which the 250 would fund one.

52/135s on a good day are as much fun as a 552/500-I know because I have had extensive use of both.
 
If you think its the H&F trafo, the Exposure route is cheaper.
The classic top model monos have stonking huge ones.
 
The main problem with the 250 is that they are all wired up wrong.
There's an easy mod to improve the performance.

Pete
 
The 0V returns all co back to the speaker terminals everybody else and Naim with most of there other amps connect them to the smoothing capacitors.
I link between the caps 0V terminals and a fat length of wire from it to the speakers 0V works wonders.
A pair of the 0V lines go to the input and the current flowing between the speaker returns and smoothing caps causes a potential to develop, so the signal input is referenced to a varing voltage.

Pete
 
Pete MB&D said:
The 0V returns all co back to the speaker terminals everybody else and Naim with most of there other amps connect them to the smoothing capacitors.
I link between the caps 0V terminals and a fat length of wire from it to the speakers 0V works wonders.
A pair of the 0V lines go to the input and the current flowing between the speaker returns and smoothing caps causes a potential to develop, so the signal input is referenced to a varing voltage.

Pete
Click to expand...

I've also implemented this mod on my CB250, definitely improves SQ.
I often wonder why Naim have made what seems to be generally regarded as a schoolboy error.
 
rontoolsie said:
What the OP has done is to validate *why* those Nait 1/2s now cost multiples of what they did new. He is not the first person to notice that there was not a lot between one of those Naits and a 52/250, apart from the latters ability to play at somewhat higher volumes and drive harder loads.

I never was much of a fan of the 250 and many of its weaknesses were addressed with the (almost identical) 135s. The 52 is a superb preamp...but for some reason I have preferred it running into 110, 140 and 135 more than I did into a 250.

Running a 52 actively with multiple 250s however is a different proposition.
My advice would be either to return to 52/250 to the used market and use those funds to have the Nait serviced, or to realize that what you really need are a pair of 135s, of which the 250 would fund one.

52/135s on a good day are as much fun as a 552/500-I know because I have had extensive use of both.
Click to expand...

I think, in fairness, the Nait 2 bubble has more to do with:

1. A serious Far-east based purchasing spree for them in the mid/late-2000s
2. Cuteness
3. The fact that, as in any bubble, prices are based on previous prices.

I get that Nait 2s sound good, believe me, but there are integrateds at the same price point (or lower) that will blow them away, at least in my experience. In my own direct A/B experience, a Nait XS will thrash a Nait 2, both in hifi and musical terms. So will an NVA AP50 btw.
 
A NaitXS is absolutely not a Nait2. I have owned both for years, the XS is a nice amp, the Nait2 is a very special amp which is much greater than the sum of its parts. Ron hit the nail on the head, it is priced according to its performance, relative to the dross available today.
 
gary yeowell said:
A NaitXS is absolutely not a Nait2. I have owned both for years, the XS is a nice amp, the Nait2 is a very special amp which is much greater than the sum of its parts. Ron hit the nail on the head, it is priced according to its performance, relative to the dross available today.
Click to expand...

Compared my CB Nait2 against an Nait XS at a friends place which was on loan by our local Naim dealer. His response to the XS was, "take it away".

He now has a nice Olive Nait2.
 
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