Guitar talk: acoustic, bass, classical, twelve string? You name it! Pt II

[PigletsDad]

I was scouring YouTube for video said of the Boss RC-10R looper pedal when I came across this from Juliana Vieira where she is playing a lovely candy apple red Fender Coronado II a guitar I knew very little about tbh.

The upshot being that I now have one of these

My brother had a blue one of these - possibly a Coronado 1, rather than 11, as yours looks like it has a decent bridge, and humbuckers. I think my brother's PUPs were single coil. The bridge on my brother's was shocking, and it sounded vastly better, with more sustain, when we swapped it for an aftermarket one. We kept the original, in case any one wanted to go back to banjo style decay. We also tucked a few wisps of speaker wadding in to the body, to slightly tame the feedback. It sounded great, but the neck was a bit iffy above the 12th fret. He sold it to Martin Phillips of the Chills, who loved it and used it for many years. I think you can probably see it one of the Chill's record covers.

 

[matthewr]

Just watched the Brett Shull video. I’ve no idea who he is

He's a gigging / session guitarist based in Altanta and a long time mate of Rick Beato. His YouTube channel is pretty good -- mostly gear demos but I like him because a) I share his taste in sounds / tone and b) he's an actual guitarist rather than a shop. He just launched his first pedal at NAMM called with Mythos called The Lark which is a recreation of the Gibson Skylark. Demo here :

(starts about half way through).

He does lots of collabs with other youtube guitarists so if you follow him the algorithm with do it's thing and you will find other channels you might like.

The other guitar youtube I really like is Paul Davids. He's a very chill Dutch guy; some gear chat but mostly lessons and technique.

 

[Tony L]

Just stuck the 8s on the Yam. I ordered a three pack of Ernie Ball Extra Slinky and annoyingly the first pack I opened was missing the .8 string, the envelope was there, but no string. Never had that before, but very lucky I ordered a three-pack as it would have been exceptionally annoying to get five strings on before discovering I was missing the 6th!

I’m just letting the guitar settle for a bit, but the initial quick play implies the intonation is still right and they are exceptionally easy to play. The guitar is a hard-tail so no trem to mess up. I suspect going from 10s to 8s would have freaked me out a bit, but from 9s isn’t much of a jump. Barre chords seem in tune, so I’m not obviously ‘dragging’ or whatever people call it when you accidentally bend out of tune. Too early to tell sound-wise as I like my strings a bit worn-in, new ones are always too bright, but I don’t think its that much different than a fresh set of 9s. The old strings had been on for 3 months or so. I tend only to change them if they break or look and feel dull/tarnished.

 

[-alan-]

By the sound of it, you could easily have skipped the 8s and gone for the full Billy Gibbons with a set of 7s..

Did putting the 8s on have any effect at all on the neck relief on the Yam ?

 

[Tony L]

Did putting the 8s on have any effect at all on the neck relief on the Yam ?

I think just a little so far, though it may take some days to get where its going. Last time I measured it with 9s the action was 4/64s across all strings at the 12th fret and the relief .011. Relief now looks to be .010, but we are literally splitting hairs here, action still where it was. I’d love to see it end up flat or with a back-bow after a year or so of 8s so I can slacken the truss rod further, but I have a feeling it is set in its ways now being such an old guitar. Basically it plays pretty much perfectly and the bridge saddles have plenty of up and down movement which shows it isn’t far off where it started (its a thru-neck), the truss rod is just rather tighter than I personally like, or certainly was with 10s (it’s not bad now, I just know it hasn’t much available movement).

PS Given the B string of an 8s set is a .11 it occurred to me that going from 11s to 8s has to be roughy the equivalent of tuning the whole guitar down a fourth when it comes to string/neck tension! That’s a heck of a lot! I’m amazed the YouTubers above didn’t have to tweak the truss rod, I’d expect that to be a quarter to half turn on most guitars!

 

[matthewr]

That’s a heck of a lot! I’m amazed the YouTubers above didn’t have to tweak the truss rod, I’d expect that to be a quarter to half turn on most guitars!

I assume they did it off screen -- the guy who changed the strings (Dave Onarato) is a well respected guitar tech and has run a guitar repair shop for decades.

 

[wulbert]

Are guitars a bit like pianos where ( allegedly) you have to tune them just a little bit "off" to get it sounding sweet? I seem to struggle sometimes to get my guitar (1990's Les Paul "Studio Lite" ( balsa wood insert) ) to be in tune across different chords. E.g. I can get sounding sweet when playing an "A" chord but playing "D" shape sounds hellish. I usually end up fudging it a bit, to get a compromise, but adding distortion really shows up any disharmony. I sometimes wonder how professionals manage it on-stage? ( Just play power chords? )

 

[Tony L]

Are guitars a bit like pianos where ( allegedly) you have to tune them just a little bit "off" to get it sounding sweet? I seem to struggle sometimes to get my guitar (1990's Les Paul "Studio Lite" ( balsa wood insert) ) to be in tune across different chords. E.g. I can get sounding sweet when playing an "A" chord but playing "D" shape sounds hellish. I usually end up fudging it a bit, to get a compromise, but adding distortion really shows up any disharmony. I sometimes wonder how professionals manage it on-stage? ( Just play power chords? )

‘Equal temperament’ tuning, as pretty much all western instruments are tuned is imperfect, but our ears are so accustomed to this system it shouldn’t sound off or beat too much with distortion. Are you certain the guitar’s intonation is correct, i.e. the 12th fret harmonic and the 12th fret fretted on each string is exactly the same?

PS This is very easy to do with a good electronic guitar tuner; just play the 12th fret harmonic, tune the guitar so that is bang in tune. Now fret the string; if it is sharp the saddle needs to be moved backwards, flat it needs to move forward. Rinse and repeat until all strings are perfectly in. Do this setup with a fresh set of strings and check it again whenever changing brand or gauge. Also check your action is correct, though this is less of a big deal on a Les Paul than guitars with individual string height adjustments; the string height at the 12th fret should be the same or very similar across the neck, e.g. I personally go with 4/64th across all strings. This means you are stretching the strings consistently when fretting barre chords etc, and that helps tuning. The action should be set before setting intonation as they both impact tuning.

 

[wulbert]

‘Equal temperament’ tuning, as pretty much all western instruments are tuned is imperfect, but our ears are so accustomed to this system it shouldn’t sound off or beat too much with distortion. Are you certain the guitar’s intonation is correct, i.e. the 12th fret harmonic and the 12th fret fretted on each string is exactly the same?

PS This is very easy to do with a good electronic guitar tuner; just play the 12th fret harmonic, tune the guitar so that is bang in tune. Now fret the string; if it is sharp the saddle needs to be moved backwards, flat it needs to move forward. Rinse and repeat until all strings are perfectly in. Do this setup with a fresh set of strings and check it again whenever changing brand or gauge. Also check your action is correct, though this is less of a big deal on a Les Paul than guitars with individual string height adjustments; the string height at the 12th fret should be the same or very similar across the neck, e.g. I personally go with 4/64th across all strings. This means you are stretching the strings consistently when fretting barre chords etc, and that helps tuning. The action should be set before setting intonation as they both impact tuning.

Thanks Tony. I haven't checked the intonation for a long while. Will have a look at it and see if it can be improved.

 

[gavreid]

Also check your action is correct, though this is less of a big deal on a Les Paul than guitars with individual string height adjustments; the string height at the 12th fret should be the same or very similar across the neck, e.g. I personally go with 4/64th across all strings. This means you are stretching the strings consistently when fretting barre chords etc, and that helps tuning. The action should be set before setting intonation as they both impact tuning.

4/64s is on the low side for the bass end of a Les Paul, and it maybe wont do that without buzzing. 5/64 is normal down to 4 (or 3) on the treble side.

 

[Stunsworth]

I assume they did it off screen -- the guy who changed the strings (Dave Onarato) is a well respected guitar tech and has run a guitar repair shop for decades.

I think they mentioned near the start that they'd be adjusting the guitars when necessary.

 

[-alan-]

PS Given the B string of an 8s set is a .11 it occurred to me that going from 11s to 8s has to be roughy the equivalent of tuning the whole guitar down a fourth when it comes to string/neck tension! That’s a heck of a lot! I’m amazed the YouTubers above didn’t have to tweak the truss rod, I’d expect that to be a quarter to half turn on most guitars!

Always hard to gauge these things (no pun intended..) but if you consider the very narrow angle the string is pulling at from the end of the string post to the bridge at the other end, there's very little of that force converted into fore-aft bending of the neck. Most of the force will go into compression along its length.

 

[Tony L]

Always hard to gauge these things (no pun intended..) but if you consider the very narrow angle the string is pulling at from the end of the string post to the bridge at the other end, there's very little of that force converted into fore-aft bending of the neck. Most of the force will go into compression along its length.

True, though you need to factor that the strings are anchored below the nut (far below on a Gibson type) and well below the bridge on a thru-body Fender type stringing, i.e. there is leverage far beyond the flat pull of nut to bridge. It is pulling up at both ends.

PS The Yam SC1200 bridge is really odd, its a hard-tail, but the bridge is a solid metal casting that goes through the body ancored by screws on the top, so I guess conceptually more similar to a Strat with a locked-out trem than the usual through body system with ferrules on the rear like a Tele or hard-tail Strat.

 

[-alan-]

Just googled the SC there - had pictured something more like a double-cut SG type body shape (d'oh that would be the 'SGNNN' series at a guess) but it's quite a different machine altogether. Very stratlike indeed. Nice things.

 

[Tony L]

Just googled the SC there - had pictured something more like a double-cut SG type body shape (d'oh that would be the 'SGNNN' series at a guess) but it's quite a different machine altogether. Very stratlike indeed. Nice things.

Yes, definitely heavily Strat-influenced. It‘s a rare guitar, IIRC it only appeared in the Yamaha catalogue in 1978 and had morphed into something vaguely similar but with a trem and a three a side headstock by the next year (SC5000). It dates from a really interesting period for me, the point where the Japanese companies had stopped copying (‘lawsuit era’) and were taking what they had learnt and were trying to build better guitars than their American influencers. This one was the single-coil equivalent of the now classic SG1000/SG2000, though Aria and Ibanez were also producing similarly good guitars with the Artist, Musician, YS guitars, SB basses etc, but it is before everything went off in a pointy headstock heavy metal direction (Ibanez now own that pretty much outright with the now classic JEM etc). Very interesting guitars.

The SC1200 is beautifully balanced, sits perfectly either on a strap or on the knee (how I play), has a very comfortable neck and every pickup combination one could ever need with each being separately switchable between on/off/phase invert aside from the neck which is just on/off. As such you can get combinations you can’t get from a Strat. The unusual ‘blade’ pickups are higher output and noticeably warmer/fatter sounding than my Strat (an ‘82 Dan Smith-era hard-tail), so it will do nice jazz tones through to the typical Strat stuff.

I was thinking about this the other day and my suspicion is I’ve never actually held or played a really, really good Strat, e.g. anything that say Mick from TPS would like. Back when I was in bands in the ‘80s nearly everyone I knew played Japanese stuff, Westone, Ibanez, Aria etc, and the few that had Fenders had late-70s to the then current mid-’80s. I’m not sure I've even played one with a nitro finish! As such I’ve no idea where the SC1200 fits in the grand scheme of things, I just know I really like it and certainly prefer it to my Strat (which is actually quite a collectable/sought-after model that similarly was only around for a single year).

This year I am going to try and rationalise my guitars as I have far too many and not necessarily the ones I want. The ones that will stay are the Yam SC1200, the £50 1970 Yam classical acoustic, and obviously the Shergolds (two Marathon basses, one Masquerader). The ones that will go are the Les Paul, the Strat, the AVRI Jazz Bass and the Gordon Smith. If I can successfully achieve that I’ll likely go shopping for a proper ‘60s Jaguar or Jazzmaster I think...

PS Today’s TPS was good, that Neon Egg Planetarium thing is amazing!

 

[Stunsworth]

I think natural finish Strats look amazing - and have for a long time.

 

[Tony L]

I think natural finish Strats look amazing - and have for a long time.

Agreed, my finish of choice, plus you can see you are getting a really nice piece of wood - there’s nowhere to hide anything nasty! My AVRI ‘76 Jazz Bass is natural too and is a fabulous looking bass with its chrome bridge and pickup covers etc. I just don’t like the neck on the thing, way too skinny at the nut for me! I’m used to the reassuring baseball bat of the Shergold (very Precision-like in feel).

 

[Yank]

I'm unconvinced by the Beato video. I choose string gauge for feel - my amp has tone controls. If I were recording or playing live, there would also be tone controls on the mixer.

You can probably change the position of your right hand a little, or use a different pick, and achieve the same thing.

 

[Tony L]

I agree, plus I just don’t like those hard-rock Marshall tones that go muddy with fat strings so it doesn’t bother me. Purely from a feel perspective after playing the 8s for a couple of days I think 9s are my favourite on a Fender scale, the 8s aren’t bad and I’ll use the three sets I bought on the Yam for the reasons I stated upthread, but my gut feeling is I prefer 9s to both 8s and 10s (11s are just too fat for me).

PS Another thing I’m pretty sure of is that the thinner the strings the lower the electrical output, i.e. some of what Beato, Shiff etc are reporting may well be down to that showing up as correspondingly less drive/crunch on the same amp/FX settings.

 

[matthewr]

Schull not Schiff. You have impeachment syndrome, Tony