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Getting the best out of a Rega DAC (or any Dac)?

tonerei said:
Daniel one thing in your reply suggests you prefer the sound coming from USB. I wonder those that square with my experience and many others using the operating system on USB. This happened when WTG sticks became available. One person used the operating system that way and reported it sounded better. Being sceptical I had no intention in implementing that.The hassle etc and I couldn't see any advantage. But running the operating system(minimal hence really only suitable for a dedicated audio pc) on USB on hearing did improve what one was hearing. You might try it if you are inclined. It would not affect your current set up but would allow you test it.Just boot from the usb stick. You can buy Sandisk Extreme 3.0 sticks for as little as £16.99 on Ebay. I would suggest trying jplay it is available on demo for free but has annoying silences(couple of seconds) to enusre if you like it in anyway you will purchase. Jplay operates by loading tracks into memory for playback and seems to prioritize audio playback. With extreme settings the PC cannot be used for anything else.Worth a try to see if these things bring improvements.

At least some of the above kinda offers suggestions to the poor rega op who has got forgotten about in the friendly exchanges on this thread
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Not sure if you are aware of how transport protocols work but USB Asynchronous is undoubtedly the best for jitter reduction and is the reason why it sounds superior. Anyone who's anyone will use USB over optical (unless they have electrical noise problems or a system doesn't implement it properly). Perhaps its a good idea to start reading up on digital processing to get a basic idea how things work.

Jplay from quick glance is nothing but a system that loads files directly to ram to prevent buffer problems, this is not a issue for people who have fast enough computers that insures buffer runs as normal without problems.
People running this that don't already run a bit perfect setup (asia, wasapi) may believe this is helping but you can achieve the exact same results with running wasapi on windows with proper buffer settings and quality computer specs to support stability.
 
tonerei said:
At least some of the above kinda offers suggestions to the poor rega op who has got forgotten about in the friendly exchanges on this thread
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Haha i was thinking the same, this always happens however its just normal. As long as he is satisfied then its ok.
 
Steven Toy said:
It is experience not theoretical knowledge that should win through else you are putting the cart before the horse. Experience from DAC designers as well as listeners seems to suggest that whilst noise on the digital signal path is unlikely to affect the data transfer itself it is likely to affect the conversion to analogue.
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Or is it experience? Most of this is conjecture or pitch. For example people frequently make claims about jitter which are actually no more than a guess to explain why they think one thing sounds better than another.

If you try to dig down to what is data as opposed to conjectural explanation, it is shocking little is left. Is there really noise coming down the( eg 5v usb) line? Does it really, actually increase jitter in the conversion clock? Is that really, actually audible? If so does it really correlate with the major effect people say they hear?

All the attempts to tie up what people hear to particular physical properties (or alleged physical properties) of components is just theory. It is impossible to live without theories, but I think it's helpful to have an awareness of how theory-laden some of one's "experiences" are. As therapists say about emotions, denying that one's experiences are theory-laden doesn't make one free of the theories , it just proves how dependent on them one is.
 
adamdea said:
Or is it experience? Most of this is conjecture or pitch. For example people frequently make claims about jitter which are actually no more than a guess to explain why they think one thing sounds better than another.

If you try to dig down to what is data as opposed to conjectural explanation, it is shocking little is left. Is there really noise coming down the( eg 5v usb) line? Does it really, actually increase jitter in the conversion clock? Is that really, actually audible? If so does it really correlate with the major effect people say they hear?

All the attempts to tie up what people hear to particular physical properties (or alleged physical properties) of components is just theory. It is impossible to live without theories, but I think it's helpful to have an awareness of how theory-laden some of one's "experiences" are. As therapists say about emotions, denying that one's experiences are theory-laden doesn't make one free of the theories , it just proves how dependent on them one is.
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Very well said. Great post...
 
Daniel. said:
Not sure if you are aware of how transport protocols work but USB Asynchronous is undoubtedly the best for jitter reduction and is the reason why it sounds superior. Anyone who's anyone will use USB over optical (unless they have electrical noise problems or a system doesn't implement it properly). Perhaps its a good idea to start reading up on digital processing to get a basic idea how things work.
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This is a sort of hifi forum/magazine orthodoxy, but it's actually pretty flimsy.

Asynch usb is best if you buy into the notion that dacs are not able to attenuate jitter and match their conversion clock to the rate at which data is sent without audible glitch. Funnily enough though there is a strong argument that dacs have worked well enough using DPLLs and/or ASRC and or buffers for years to reduce any inferface jitter to negligble levels so as not to need asynch usb .

I use toslink rather than asynch usb into my dac, although coax, usb and toslink all sound the same to me (as does ethernet streaming via a wireless
bridge). I'm not saying that jitter is a made up phenomenon, but the notion that it's the reason why different transports and cables "sound" different is just another theory. The evidence (or for that matter theory) that a few hundred ps on the conversion clock is audible is very thin. The evidence that a few hunded ps of jitter in the transmitted data stream will make it through the DPLL and ASRC and buffers of any modern dac, and produce an audible effect, is thinner than graphene. (incidentally you may note scepticism about this in your text books).

So when people then start saying that they can still hear differences between cables and transports using asynch usb, one might start wondering whether the jitter explanation might just have been an unnecessary hypothesis. If interface jitter from S/pdif was the big enemy then how come getting rid of it hasn't "solved" the "problem".[ps I can get how usb cables with the 5v line cut off might make a difference; but these are relatively new; expensive cables with the 5v line intact could only transmit noise better]
 
Daniel. said:
Wait wait wait, dont tell me you use a fanless computer because you think it makes a difference in audio ouput.
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Fans make (acoustic) noise. If you have a pc in the room with your audio then it should be quiet.
Of course years and years and years ago the people who came up with the squeezebox thought that it was obvious that since pcs make elctrical and acoustic noise, the senisble thing was to keep them in a different room and connect via ethernet or wireless.

I can't see why one would want to use a pc in the same room as the hifi, but it greatly tickled me when people started making foo computers with fancy psus and SSD's to solve this problem. It's IMHO about as smart as keeping your fire on throughout summer and getting an airconditioner to keep the room at a nice temperature.
 
Jitter has been such a friend to manufacturers over the years. Each time a new digital product is released it's said to reduce jitter even further than the previous one, and sound better for it. And of course reviewers agree as do many users.

But jitter hasn't been a problem with digital products for years as far as I understand it, so jitter reduction - if indeed it is actually reduced every time as claimed - is a moot point as it wouldn't have been audible anyway.
 
maxflinn said:
Very well said. Great post...
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No. It just fuels the same old subj/obj prove-it shite.

Conjecture is a legal term meaing inadmissible evidence.

Adam is just putting the cart before the horse again.

How is wireless going to be less noisy?
 
Steven Toy said:
Conjecture is a legal term meaing inadmissible evidence.
....
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I do not wish to become involved in any tiresome circular arguments, but no- "conjecture" is not a legal term and no it does not mean "inadmissible evidence" although it may be the case that conjecture is inadmissible in some (or, for all I know, all) legal systems.

You have been making a lot of portentous statements about "theory" and "experience". I have simply invited you to recognise how much theory is built into your beliefs.

How is wireless going to be less noisy?
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Wireless transmission means that the sending device cannot transmit any electrical noise, obviously. It allows the sending device to be in another room.

Whether the wireless receiver generates noise is another question.
 
Steven Toy said:
No. It just fuels the same old subj/obj prove-it shite.

Conjecture is a legal term meaing inadmissible evidence.

Adam is just putting the cart before the horse again.

How is wireless going to be less noisy?
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I think Adam's recent posts on this thread have been very interesting and thought provoking.

Can you explain what you mean by "how is wireless going to be less noisy"?

Remember that a digital set-top box or TV that takes a satellite feed from space needs a bit-perfect digital stream.

Data travelling from space through the earths atmosphere is highly likely to encounter more noise than data going from a DVD player to a DAC.

So given the fact that satellite TV is so remarkably reliable and noise hardly ever disrupts it, would you not deduce that simply transferring data a few feet in the home would be even more reliable, and need to deal with far less noise?
 
Max,
Very few people argue the point about digital data transfer per se, and this includes Steven I think.

I think the debate is usually more around the effects of noise and jitter on the process of conversion from digital to analogue and later stages. If we're going to have a bun fight let's stick to that at least!
Darren
 
darrenyeats said:
Max,
Very few people argue the point about digital data transfer per se, and this includes Steven I think.

I think the debate is usually more around the effects of noise on the process of conversion from digital to analogue and later stages. If we're going to have a bun fight let's stick to that at least!
Darren
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Yes.
 
darrenyeats said:
Max,
Very few people argue the point about digital data transfer per se, and this includes Steven I think.

I think the debate is usually more around the effects of noise and jitter on the process of conversion from digital to analogue and later stages. If we're going to have a bun fight let's stick to that at least!
Darren
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No worries, Darren, and point taken.

It seems so that the people reporting differences in transports are either mistaken, or, certain transports, or methods of transport are introducing noise and jitter to their DACs, and this noise and jitter causes audible artefacts because their DACs aren't sufficiently shielded from the noise and jitter.

Steven, would you say that this might describe your situation?
 
Reckon this happens in all walks of life but a lot of the sceptical contributors never seem to go to any lengths to get to hear different configurations of systems. They just seem to sit at their keyboards firing out dismissive posts on whatever experiences others have and request 'evidence' double blind tests etc etc ad nausea but never put themselves up for any work!

It reminds me of the armchair football expert who advise all how to do it right without ever moving from the chair except to get another can from the fridge.

I see any of these forums as a way of getting information about things people have tried.The idea in all human endevour should be to try and push the boundaries. Experimenting and trying different things inform you.
 
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