Getting the best out of a Rega DAC (or any Dac)?

[Peter Stockwell]

When Peter Stockwell came in Feb we compared the netbook powered by the mains with it powered by its battery. The latter was worse.

This actually surprised me.

Yes, the Netbook was not that hot as a transport, and running off the battery wasn't the answer. A better quality computer, with more battery oomph may have been better. When disconnecting the netbook from the mains, and still running music, there was a sort of tail off from not that brilliant, to slightly worse. Mostly heard as a loss of dynamcs.

I was really disappointed that the netbook was so ordinary.

The connection to the dac was via usb.

 

[Peter Stockwell]

I wouldn't get hung up on what's providing power to a component, it's irrelevant to sound quality.

Appart from looking like a remark that's aimed at starting a pie fight, my experience is entirely to the contrary.

 

[Steven Toy]

Even with an asynchronous USB DAC ?

Yes. The MDAC L3 Toy is an asynchronous USB DAC.

 

[Steven Toy]

We basically have three options here:

1) Kid yourself that using a computer as a source component/transport is "just as good"/"better" than a disc-spinning transport when it probably is not.

2) Accept a (small) loss in sound quality as a worthy sacrifice for the convenience of being able to access all of your music collection from your listening seat and not have to play "hunt the CD" or "hunt the jewel case."

3) Sacrifice convenience for sound quality, have to play the above irritating games from time to time and get a decent disc transport.

I have chosen option 3. It is (still) a free country and your priorities may be different but the Rega Apollo R fits the bill nicely. It looks like a quality product for 550 quid, its half-width case means it can share a shelf with most DACs including of course its own partnering DAC (also excellent vfm) and it is a worthwhile upgrade over your computer in terms of SQ.

Do I have to add an "imho?"

 

[Werner]

This actually surprised me.

When I started recording over ten years ago I did so with a Dell corporate laptop and USB-powered ADC.

Measurements of the ADC's noise floor revealed that it got significantly dirtier when running the laptop on its battery.

 

[Steven Toy]

When I started recording over ten years ago I did so with a Dell corporate laptop and USB-powered ADC.

Measurements of the ADC's noise floor revealed that it got significantly dirtier when running the laptop on its battery.

Nice! I'm not going (more) nuts then

 

[adamdea]

We basically have three options here:

1) Kid yourself that using a computer as a source component/transport is "just as good"/"better" than a disc-spinning transport when it probably is not.

An introspective soul might be tempted to wonder whether a sentence of this sort was very different (as regards the new approach to acceptable behaviour on a forum) from a sentence of the form
"imagine that different transports make any audible difference when played though a dac with an independent power supply and bog standard levels of jitter rejection, when they probably do not."

 

[adamdea]

Nice! I'm not going (more) nuts then

USB-powered ADC

 

[Robert]

Nice! I'm not going (more) nuts then

Steve you are making the usual mistake of promoting the possible to the actual.

Werner said 'Measurements of the ADC's noise floor revealed that it got significantly dirtier when running the laptop on its battery' which isn't the same as saying it sounded any worse for it.

It might have sounded worse of course, but you really shouldn't assume these things, and you certainly shouldn't assume that everything measurable is audible.

 

[Steven Toy]

An introspective soul might be tempted to wonder whether a sentence of this sort was very different (as regards the new approach to acceptable behaviour on a forum) from a sentence of the form
"imagine that different transports make any audible difference when played though a dac with an independent power supply and bog standard levels of jitter rejection, when they probably do not."

It would depend on whether the statement was derived from experience or orthodoxy of the "I believe it cannot therefore it (probably) does not" variety.

It is the orthodoxy that is at the root of conflict

 

[whatsnext]

PC was designed by IBM was for business years ago, text based computing. It has been evolved by various manufacturers for various purposes. Still the same fundamental architecture. I use PC architecture machines for work and Mac for Multimedia.

Why are you guys trying to use a business spec device for audio when there is a product designed for that purpose. Netbooks are a cheaper version of fuller speced Laptops so it is unrealistic to expect it to a) be typical of PC architecture potential, b) anything other than a built to a price device.

Not saying Macs are perfect but they are at least offered to market as MM devices.

 

[Steven Toy]

Steve you are making the usual mistake of promoting the possible to the actual.

Werner said 'Measurements of the ADC's noise floor revealed that it got significantly dirtier when running the laptop on its battery' which isn't the same as saying it sounded any worse for it.

It might have sounded worse of course, but you really shouldn't assume these things, and you certainly shouldn't assume that everything measurable is audible.

I am making no assumptions beyond the existence of a plausible explanation by Werner for what Peter and I heard.

An assumption was made that battery power (from the internal battery inside the PC) would be cleaner. This assumption has been challenged, first by contrary experience, second by data, albeit in a different context on which you are assuming that I've made an assumption.

 

[adamdea]

I am making no assumptions beyond the existence of a plausible explanation by Werner for what Peter and I heard.

An assumption was made that battery power (from the internal battery inside the PC) would be cleaner. This assumption has been challenged, first by contrary experience, second by data, albeit in a different context on which you are assuming that I've made an assumption.

I think that lots of people including people who build stuff professionally have made the point on this forum that batteries are not necessarily superior to AC supplies.

It's worth noting in addition that Werner said it was a usb powered ADC. The ADC was therefore powered by the (presumably) inferior supply. No mysteries there then and not necessarily applicable to a battery powered laptop suppliying data only via usb to a dac (we know that the Mdac does not take power via usb).

 

[Steven Toy]

I think that lots of people including people who build stuff professionally have made the point on this forum that batteries are not necessarily superior to AC supplies.

It's worth noting in addition that Werner said it was a usb powered ADC. The ADC was therefore powered by the (presumably) inferior supply. No mysteries there then and not necessarily applicable to a battery powered laptop suppliying data only via usb to a dac (we know that the Mdac does not take power via usb).

This is a red herring. The issue was jcbrum's assumtion that battery power is cleaner than AC supplies. Into what is not really relevant to that specific issue.

 

[adamdea]

It would depend on whether the statement was derived from experience or orthodoxy of the "I believe it cannot therefore it (probably) does not" variety.

Hmmm. Personally I find this whole thing puzzling becasue from the first time i plugged in my SBT into my dac it sounded just right to me compared with my MF X dac V3 used as a transport. 4-5 years ago lots of people used to swear blind that their CD transports sounded miles better than any streamer/ pc / mac, but lots of people didn't either.

I'd be intrigued to see what the balance was now. My guess is that fewer people think CD transports sound better.

I admit that I may be influenced in my subjective reaction by the fact that I think it's preposterous to think that reading a polycarbonate disk in real time and sending the data to a SPDIF/usb transmitter could be a better way of doing it than just sending a digital file from memory to the same transmitter.

 

[Steven Toy]

Hmmm. Personally I find this whole thing puzzling becasue from the first time i plugged in my SBT into my dac it sounded just right to me compared with my MF X dac V3 used as a transport. 4-5 years ago lots of people used to swear blind that their CD transports sounded miles better than any streamer/ pc / mac, but lots of people didn't either.

I'd be intrigued to see what the balance was now. My guess is that fewer people think CD transports sound better.

I admit that I may be influenced in my subjective reaction by the fact that I think it's preposterous to think that reading a polycarbonate disk in real time and sending the data to a SPDIF/usb transmitter could be a better way of doing it than just sending a digital file from memory to the same transmitter.

Fair comment. It would also depend on the resolution capability of the rest of the system, this in addition to the points you make.

 

[maxflinn]

Steven, I enjoy reading your sharp-witted replies in these kind of debates . You make a very convincing argument sometimes, which you reinforce by statements of fact that are in fact opinions, and inferences derived from your own interpretation of points that other people make.

Whether you know it or not, you'd be perfect for foo advertising

 

[adamdea]

Fair comment. It would also depend on the resolution capability of the rest of the system, this in addition to the points you make.

How many CD transports are there which have really been designed as CD transports either? How much thought has gone into the design of the CD player from the point of view of optimising its digital outputs? (assuming that this can make a dac sound better) And if its a real transport only solution, has it been designed as such or is it just a CDP with the dac taken out.

I can see the logic of arguing that CD players should be in one box (as naim argued for years), so that the signals are kept as I2S and the dac clock can control everything. But once you're using the SP/DIF output of your player, are you really using it as designed?

My experience has also been that enjoying listening to music has a lot to do with enjoying and feeling comfortable with what you are doing. The better the UI, the more I enjoy the whole thing. I don't think its the DAC that gets more "relaxed", "musical" or gets more "flow" and "ease".

 

[Steven Toy]

Steven, I enjoy reading your sharp-witted replies in these kind of debates . You make a very convincing argument sometimes, which you reinforce by statements of fact that are in fact opinions, and inferences derived from your own interpretation of points that other people make.

Whether you know it or not, you'd be perfect for foo advertising

Naah! Ashley would run rings round me

 

[adamdea]

PC was designed by IBM was for business years ago, text based computing. It has been evolved by various manufacturers for various purposes. Still the same fundamental architecture. I use PC architecture machines for work and Mac for Multimedia.

Why are you guys trying to use a business spec device for audio when there is a product designed for that purpose. Netbooks are a cheaper version of fuller speced Laptops so it is unrealistic to expect it to a) be typical of PC architecture potential, b) anything other than a built to a price device.

Not saying Macs are perfect but they are at least offered to market as MM devices.

And by that logic what is a music only streaming device then?