advertisement


Garrard 301/401 - Which is best?

Stuart Frazer

Stuart Frazer

pfm Member
Further to the discussion on the old forum regarding Garrard 301/401 turntables, I was chatting to someone who had a bit of knowledge about them and enquired to his opinion between the two decks - he replied “the 401 is the more neutral sounding deck, but the 301 does bass like nothing else, if you like bass get a 301”. Anybody else found this?

In a separate context, on asking Terry at Loricraft which was the better deck, he replied the 401 is, because the 301 was designed for mono. I was handing him a 401 to service at the time…. However, if you read the Loricraft web site carefully, it contradicts this view and favours the 301 over the 401 on the design basis?

Anybody got any view on this?

Stuart
 
Stuart

I live in Swindon where the Garrard was made and you would be surprised how many ex employees there still are hanging around.

In my time I have spoken at length with

a) a former Director

b) a former Chief Engineer

c) numerous ex assembly workers

d) numerous ex apprentices

e) a former buyer.


They all have one thing in common, they all reckon the 401 is by far the best model. Not one of them preferred the 301.

Contrary to popular belief, it was more carefully assembled than the 301 and the quality control was better.

You got the best model, so sleep easy.

Just get it fitted in the Loricraft plinth and you will be well away.

Regards

Mick
 
I am somewhat amused by the enthusiasm surrounding these units.

About 25 years ago when I worked in a Brisbane based Hi Fi store (I sold the first LP12 in Queensland) this method of turning the platter was known as rumble drive.

Aside from looking great nobody took them seriously, Garrard followed this with the absolute joke the Zero 100. I suppose these will in the fullness of time become some sort of desirable item.

What made this really a joke was the abortive attempt to achieve zero tracking error but succeded in introduced enormous amounts of bearing friction and tone arm inertia.

If this trend continues we could be searching out the mighty SP25 now these had a very desirable feature, they could stack records - what a collectors item.

If this rumble drive turntable interest is growing then it is worth considering the Lenco L75 (IIRC) this has to be a consideration, using the model T Ford transmission design these things had infinite speed selection.

Also another contempory rumble drive worthy of consideration is the Dual 1219.

If the need is to own an old turntable then consider the turntable that started the 3 point suspension belt drive thing - the AR turntable, if something better made is required then the obvious choice is the Thorens TD125, not the MKII, of all things they compromised the main bearing mounting and put a clutch in the drive train.

Umm I think I will start buying old radiograms and start hoarding SP25s.
 
I had a Dual 1229 (which cost me £5 in a car boot sale) back in 1997 - with a 11 quid stylus replacement it sounded pretty good and did bass like no belt drive I've heard... The idler was a little flat though so there was a bit of rumble, but hey - for £16 - what can you expect...

It makes me laugh how people slag off decks like the Garrard SP25, and then blather on about how great the equally geriactric LP12 is - I can't see the difference personally - AFAIC I'd take a rumble drive any day of the week over that bloody nightmare - oh look, let's get the LP12 serviced. Oh dear, now it's home we have to reset it up again. Oh, woops, just trashed another cart by breathing on the floor wrong etc etc...

Donning flameproof clothing as I finish this...

BTW - I have heard a couple of LP12s that aren't too bad, but I don't think that thing deserves the hype...
 
Barry

The Garrard 301 and 401 were a classic case of spoiling the ship for a half pence of tar.

Both of these decks were superbly engineered and as such were expensive. You bought the deck as a unit and then bought a plinth.

Most plinths were really just a hotch potch of plywood which was stained and varnished in order to make it look good.

Therefore although the garrards were good, the cheap plinth failed to eliminate rumble and the sound was poor. You can put
a Rolls Royce engine in a Morris 1000 engine bay and the result will be vibration.

Loricraft recognised the problem and produced a heavy built plinth which has totally eliminated rumble and the result is something which exceeds the LP12. Bastins make a solid marble plinth and that also looks and sounds good.

Of course you will not believe me, but it is true. The Hifi industry has recognised the value of stands (Fraim, Hutter, Mana etc) as a means of improving sound.

The Loricraft plinth is an effectivly a stand and the result is great.

The 301 and 401 were the only two over engineered TT's from Garrard and yes I agree that the others were mediocre.

If you ever get to a Hifi show, make a bee line for the Loricraft stand and listen to the Garrard 501. You will be amazed.

Regards

Mick
 
Mick,
You really ought to get into your CP and edit your user profile. 'Junior Member' somehow falls short of according you the authority and respect you indubitably deserve. :D
 
Mick

IIRC during their production SME built special plinths on sand bedding, I think Alastair Robertson-Aikman had 401 in one of these units.

If the Garrard is improved 25 years later by an aftermarket base imagine how the LP12 would be improved with the same attention paid to the base.

You wouldn't argue the LP12 base is much better than "a hotch potch of plywood". But because the fundamental design is sound then a simple base is adequate to provide excellent performance.

Because the fundamental design is flawed, using a rubber wheel to transfer the drive and coincidently transfer the motor vibrations also it will always be inferior to a good belt drive, the belt drive is an elegant solution.

If you happen to have a halfpennth of tar it would be a good idea to apply it to any suitable surface under the platter and base to help stop the thing ringing.

As far as vintage is concerned I have a National SP10, yes National before they reinvented themselves and became Technics.

I experimented with a variety of bases and settled on a sandwich of 19mm AC/12 mm rubber/19 mm particleboard.

This transformed the unit from ordinary to OK but not in the same league as the LP12.

Not wishing to be a nit picker but I think you would find the Rolls Royce engine wouldn't rumble in anything.

As a a matter of a fact the analogy of the Rolls Royce and Morris is fitting, the RR is the belt drive and the Morris is the rim drive. Sure you can spend a bomb on the Morris but it will never be a Rolls.

Regards
 
Barry

Belt drive killed off idler wheel drive because it gave a smoother presentation. This was due to the lightweight plinths being used at the time.

Today you can use a 401 in a Loricraft plinth and the result is much better than the sound coming out of the average LP12. The problem being that this is just not generally believed.

Yes you could possibly fit a LP12 into a better plinth but that is another subject.

My point is very simple. A 401 in a Loricraft plinth is more easily set up, is more reliable with greater longevity and sounds better than a LP12. The only way to prove that is to listen to one and then make up your own mind.

I hope to soon have mine returned from Loricraft with the Aro fitted and you are welcome to have a listen if you wish.

Regards

Mick
 
Originally posted by Mick Parry
Today you can use a 401 in a Loricraft plinth and the result is much better than the sound coming out of the average LP12. The problem being that this is just not generally believed.

...A 401 in a Loricraft plinth is more easily set up, is more reliable with greater longevity and sounds better than a LP12.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of that song by the Smiths - the world won't listen! Don't forget a LOT of LP12 owners are blinkered to anything OTHER than an LP12 - probably because they're constantly forking out on "upgrades" and servicing an an attempt to keep consistent sound quality (or lack of it depending on your viewpoint - ahem!) eminating from it - so any other deck that just might be as good as or better, and with less maintenance, would upset the LP12 owner's concepts of good and evil, or cause a quantum paralax in their universe or something - a bit like Hudsen 10's "What, no silicon heav-ooonnnnnnnassssssnbnbbnekkrrrrrrrrpup" in Red Dwarf...

The LP12 isn't the only turntable for crying out loud...

Idler does bass better than belt anyway - when done properly... And an idler won't stall when you're trying to clean a record using a carbon fibre brush either :)
 
Mick

Thanks for the invitation maybe in the next couple of years I may make the pilgrimage to Salisbury (not stonehenge) if so I will take up the offer.

When Ivor Tiefenbrun visited our Hi Fi store in Brisbane (25 years ago) we were comparing the Linn and IIRC a Technics SL1200.

Both turntables were equiped with SME 3009 and Ortofon M15E Super cartridges but the interesting thing aside from the different sound was the power output.
The amplifier was a Luxman 150 watt per channel unit that had VU meters, when playing the direct drive the average power delivered hovered around the 50% with peaks of 75% full scale deflection. With the LP12 the average power was more of the order 25% with peaks of 100% full scale deflection.
Ivors explaination that the direct drive with the acoustic feedback in the aluminum platter and base and motor subsonic rumble etc. was being amplified robbing the amplifier of transient power and generally working hard all the time.

Mick this is a test worth trying, I would be interested in the outcome, in the meantime don't disregard the tar, this mixed with sand etc.

Regardless of how good the Loricraft base is taking the ring out of the base first will improve the performance, test the base by tapping it during playback and observe what comes out of the speakers, don't forget the sound from the speakers is impinging on the aluminum casting base and platter.

Don't loose sight of the fact that the ambience adored by the valve enthusiasts is in part due to the microphonic nature of the output valves, producing the ambience effect tapping these will also provide the confirmation.

domfjbrown

The reference to the Dual etc. is that they also rim drive turntables, but you have recognised that, OK it rumbles but for 16 quid what can you expect - it is excellent value for money.

Whilst the geriactric LP12 is the same age as the SP25 nobody then or now would consider these units remotely equal but the Garrard SP25 is significently superior if value for money presses your button.

It is worth noting a lot of people are enthusticatic about another geriactric product of 25 year vintage and that is the NAIM NAP250.
And on a similar note even older Marantz 9 and Radford ST25 still command respect.

There is no question that the LP12 is dicky to set up, but there is nothing magical about this just common sense, here is a clue cut 3 x 60mm holes through the base below the springs and the spring height etc. can be adjusted without removing the base.
Final test - if the tunrtable feeds back then the setup is crap.

Regards...
 
Yeah - I recognise that the SP25 is shoddy - no contest there. My mate has a 100 Zero which actually isn't as bad as all that - it's not a great turntable but it's not bad either...

As for the geriactric hifi thing - I've got a 1972 Akai CR81D 8track cartridge recorder that still works pretty damn well - they don't build kit (including the current LP12) like that any more :) (although not building 8track decks now might not be such a bad thing - but they're funny to use!)
 
domfjbrown

I think we have just about thrashed the Garrard thing to death.

You reference to the 8 track has started me thinking, I wonder what sort of classic stuff people have sitting around because the happen to want to keep them.

I have:- a National SP10 TT, a pair AR-LST speakers, a Thorens TD125 TT to start the discussion.

The attraction for me is build quality I don't buy my equipment on a tonnage basis but I have trouble getting excited about the quality of say a DVD player when it weights as much as the box it came in.

Regards...... :)
 
Originally posted by BarryJHart
but I have trouble getting excited about the quality of say a DVD player when it weights as much as the box it came in.

Regards...... :)
Click to expand...
In which case you might give Teac a call. Their DVD player weighs 25kgs (as do the CDPS. I know - my back still hurts from lifting mine out of the box).
Back to Garrard... In Japan, Garrard rank with EMT as *the* decks to own for the "more mature" and monied listener.
Interestingly, a 301 is 2 or 3 times the price of a 401!
There is a shop just outside Akihabara that pretty much specializes in Garrard FYI and FWIW etc. I stumbled on it by accident one day on my way to the Edo Museum, and have not been able to find it since.
Must be why I have the Rega now.
 
This is all getting a little heated chaps,

I think it is important to remember that in Hi Fi as in many other areas application, is far more important than the principle used.

Thus

A good reflex speaker is better than a bad infinite baffle.
A good box speaker is better than a crap electrostatic design.
A good transistor amplifier is better than a bad valve amplifier and vice versa.

And therefore

A well restored and plinthed Garrard 301/401 or Thorens TD 124 turntable will wipe the floor with many subchasis decks including the very good Thorens 150. I've heard this comparison done.

A well set up Linn Sondek, for the same reason will wipe the floor with Garrard SP 25s, Rega Planar 2s and 3s, etc, on the latter point Roy Gandy agrees and he must know something about turntables.
 
Sorry to go back to the 401 but al being well I may be the owner of one in the next few days. All i need then is a plinth and an SME arm and im away. My queery is with plinths can I make one or is it better to bite the bullet and buy one from a mnufacturer(ive seen Loricraft but who else is there) also any other ideas on arm/cartridge would be useful ta Clive Smith
 
Clive

Yes you do need a good heavy duty plinth. A 401 in a normal plinth is mediocre.

There are two main propriety plinths

1. Loricraft who make wooden ones to an exceptionally high standard.

2. Martin Bastin who makes Marble / Granite ones.

You can make your own wooden one but I doubt that you could equal the finish of Loricraft.

If budget is a problem, go for a RB300 arm. It will take MM and MC catridges and can be upgraded with Origin Live or Incognito modifications at a later date. The SME 3009 arm is nowhere near as good and is only suitable for MM cartridges.

Regards

Mick
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top