Four Green Fields

[-alan-]

My wife is a great posthumous fan of Michael Collins, based on the erroneous belief that he was as good-looking as Liam Neeson; who, of course, played him in the film.

Always thought he was more of a ringer for Kenneth Branagh:

 

[Cav]

waldeufel is either trying to create some persona as an ex-pat Republican who has doubts - if so he needs to do much more research - or he is building a post count to sell something.

Either way, I am not convinced by anything he/she has posted so far.

 

[Waldteufel]

Trust me, Waldteufel is not remotely republican. I'm involved with a focus group, based in Dublin, which believes that Ireland should rejoin the Commonwealth. We also believe that the Easter Rising, celebrated somewhat immoderately earlier this year, was a deplorable act of treason which led to a great many unnecessary deaths and the complete ruin of much of the centre of Dublin. Unnecessary because the MP John Redmond had already secured the promise of Home Rule for Ireland by 1914. The outbreak of the Great War put this on hold, and a disparate group of nutters and malcontents, with various agendas, combined to carry out the Easter Rising. Indirectly, this led to independence for most of Ireland, but not in a form any sensible person would have wanted. It allowed the Roman Catholic church to impose its perverted standards on the country, and to carry out the atrocities which have since come to light.

 

[Cav]

So you want Unification but with the British? Seriously?

 

[ff1d1l]

Four Green Fields is a great song, and pulls of that Irish trick of being effortlessly literary. The Dick Gaughan version is the dogs, IMHO

Like all post land grab injustices - Palestine, the Native Americans spring to mind, but there are others, too many others, history is largely written by the literate and educated victor. I'm no expert on Irish history, but from what I've read things that stick in my mind are that Irish lands and estates were doled out by various monarchs from Elizabeth the first onwards, as grace and favours and thank you's to mainly protestant, English gentry. That and these gentry subsequently taxing the largely catholic serf populace and exporting food while they were allowed to starve, hardly made for a long term amicability between them.

Memories are long. Folk memories are longer. And this is now a folk song.

Post Brexit maybe we in Wales should be agitating for the ejection of all post Brythonic immigration? We'll have Rheged and Edinburgh back while we're at it, thanks. Wait a minute...go back far enough and I think we're entitled to a green field or two, too...

 

[twotone]

I'm always intrigued by this left/right polarization in UK politics. We have nothing like it in Ireland. Our two main parties are a legacy of the Civil War, and our Labour Party is unconnected ideologically with the one in Britain. We have a Socialist Workers' Party, but it has never really made much headway. Ireland had a brief flirtation with fascism in the 1930s, in the form of the Blueshirts.

Is it not possible that someone might be decent, regardless of which party they belong to? At least joining a party suggests a certain level of commitment. Consider how many people joined the Communist Party as undergraduates before the war, even if, with the benefit of hindsight, they regretted doing so.

The Blueshirts fought with the Falangists in Spain during the civil war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Got that wrong the Falangists turned on them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(Spanish_Civil_War)

 

[MikeMA]

The Blueshirts fought with the Falangists in Spain during the civil war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Got that wrong the Falangists turned on them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(Spanish_Civil_War)

This is an interesting thread.

It wasn't only the Blueshirts who were pro Nationalist:

Irish opinion overwhelmingly pro-Franco

On 20 July 1936 reports of a rebellion by army officers in Spain appeared in Irish newspapers. The Irish Independent, which would become the loudest cheerleader of the pro-Franco lobby, warned that a victory for the Spanish government would lead to a ‘Soviet State’ and urged its readers to support the Nationalists ‘who stand for the ancient faith and traditions of Spain’. The somewhat less gung-ho Irish Press also approved of Franco. His rebellion ‘must have a large measure of public support’ because of the Republican government’s anti-clericalism—‘churches have been burned, schools secularised, Communistic schemes carried out’. Clergy, politicians and the provincial and Catholic press echoed these concerns more forcefully. Within weeks the Irish hierarchy was calling for Franco’s victory. In the face of this strong pro-Franco consensus, a tiny campaign of support for the Spanish Republic, organised by a small number of left-wing republicans and communists struggled to be heard. By the autumn of 1936 pro-Franco meetings were sweeping the country and two military brigades were preparing to fight each other in Spain.

Why were Irish people so interested in the war? Essentially because Spain was seen as a religious rather than political conflict. Most people knew little about Spain or its complicated politics when Franco’s rebellion broke out. But Spain was regarded, like Ireland, as a historically Catholic nation, a perception derived from the importance of events such as the Battle of Kinsale, the flight of the Wild Geese and the training of Irish seminarians in Salamanca in popular nationalist history. Spain’s more recent history—the establishment of the Spanish Republic in 1931 and its radical anti-clericalism—was viewed rather differently. For a number of years the Irish bishops and Catholic press had portrayed Spain as a Catholic state besieged by communism and atheism. When the civil war began the complexities of the conflict were largely ignored. That the Republic comprised not just communists, but socialists, liberals, middle-class progressives, landless labourers, workers, Catalonians and Catholic Basques, was little reported. Similarly, that Franco’s Nationalists comprised not just much of the clergy but a reactionary coalition of fascists, army officers, landowners and industrialists was not much remarked on. Instead public debate was dominated by the anti-clerical violence that swept Republican Spain after Franco’s rebellion when twelve bishops, about 4,000 priests, 2,000 monks and 300 nuns were murdered. The sensational press reports of these atrocities, often embellished in highly emotive accounts, had an enormous impact on Catholic Ireland. The reaction of Irish Protestants, in contrast, was more muted. The Irish Times, to some extent still the organ of Protestant imperial opinion, adopted a mild pro-republican stance and reported the atrocities of both sides. In Northern Ireland, unionists generally looked unfavourably on both Franco and the Republic but many unionist leaders attributed Spain’s difficulties to the malign influences of both Catholicism and republicanism.

‘A war between Christ and anti-Christ’

By the autumn of 1936 the Irish pro-Franco lobby was becoming a powerful force. In September 1936 Cardinal MacRory, primate of all Ireland, unambiguously declared the church’s support for Franco:

There is no room any longer for any doubts as to the issue at stake in the Spanish conflict…It is a question of whether Spain will remain as she has been so long, a Christian and Catholic land, or a Bolshevist and anti-God one.

The depiction of a holy war continued in the following year’s Lenten pastorals where more attention was devoted to communism and the Spanish Civil War than any other issue. Bishop O’Kane declared Spain a struggle ‘between God and the powers of darkness’. Bishop Doorly described it as ‘a war between Christ and anti-Christ’. Bishop Fogarty declared Franco’s soldiers ‘gallant champions of the Cross who are fighting so gloriously for Christ. How can such fervent partisanship be explained? The Irish hierarchy was genuinely worried about Spain. As Bishop Mageean warned, if Catholic Spain had succumbed to communism ‘who will be so rash as to prophesy what the situation may be here in Ireland in ten years time if we pursue the policy of drift’. But, as Mageean’s statement implies, the church also used the example of Spain to warn against the influence of left-wing, liberal and secular trends in Irish society.

Irish Christian Front

The most significant manifestation of the widespread support for Franco was the establishment of the Irish Christian Front (ICF) in August 1936. Their manifesto declared:

Anyone who supports the Spanish government supports church burning and priest slaughter. We should wish for the success of the Patriot arms in Spain, not that we are the least concerned with the temporal issues at stake there, but that we want the advance guard of the anti-God forces stopped in Spain and thereby from reaching our shores.

The ICF spread throughout Ireland, organising a series of public meetings at which local priests, politicians and trade unionists declared their support for Franco. Over 40,000 people attended a Cork meeting in September 1936 which typified the fervent response to Spain. Monsignor Sexton, dean of Cork, blamed the Spanish civil war on ‘a gang of murderous Jews in Moscow’. The academic, Alfred O’Rahilly, described the stripping, crucifixion and burning of Spanish nuns and criticised the Irish government’s neutrality. The crowd crossed their hands above their hands to pledge loyalty to the ICF and Franco. Violence between the crowd and a few hecklers broke out; several were beaten or thrown in the River Lee. The intensity of this response is best understood in the context of the militant Catholicism of the Irish Free State where ‘faith and fatherland’ were often seen as synonymous.

The Christian Front’s declared aims were to oppose communism, support Franco and raise funds. But, despite the organisation’s non-political rhetoric, there was a more reactionary underlying agenda. The Christian Front’s leadership was composed of Catholic Action supporters, anti-communist activists and fascist sympathisers who believed that the government and laws of the Irish Free State should reflect Catholic principles. Under the presidency of Patrick Belton, a former Blueshirt with fascistic and anti-Semitic views, it was not long before Spain became a highly politicised issue.

Interesting article from the History Ireland website here:

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/ireland-and-the-spanish-civil-war/

IMHO Four Green Fields is a dreadful dirge.

 

[ff1d1l]

The word came from Maynooth, 'support the Nazis'
The men of cloth failed again
When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire
As they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain

..from another dreadful dirge...

 

[Waldteufel]

Yet, despite all this interest in European affairs during the thirties, Ireland remained neutral when the really important conflict broke out, officially described in Ireland as "the Emergency." Still, many Irishmen left to join up, some deserting from the Irish army to do so. Until recently, all the Irish casualties of both world wars were airbrushed out of history, and such war memorials as there were in Ireland were ignored and derelict. Thankfully, this is changing, and we can only hope that young people will be allowed to know about all their history, rather than a somewhat selective synopsis of it.

 

[Waldteufel]

IMHO Four Green Fields is a dreadful dirge.

It certainly is, like so many songs you hear in some Dublin pubs late in the evening. It would be interesting, though, to know how many atrocities during the seventies and eighties, and even into the nineties, were inspired by this and other such songs.

 

[ff1d1l]

Ooooh, I know...the blight of Dublin pubs...and that jiggly music they play as well, the absolute pits. Unlike the stately and uplifting beat of the Lambeg on an (insert fruit of your choice) march.

It would be interesting, though, to know....etc...etc...etc...cont p94

 

[-alan-]

Trust me, Waldteufel is not remotely republican. I'm involved with a focus group, based in Dublin, which believes that Ireland should rejoin the Commonwealth

Alright, I'll bite.

Who is the focus group, and/or if you wish to remain nameless..why in your view should we rejoin the Commonwealth ?

 

[Waldteufel]

It's called the Reform Group. There's a website. Look for the Royal Irish Constabulary reference to avoid confusion with other similarly-named bodies. Plenty to read there about the Commonwealth. We have on board a former Taoiseach, a Senator, a prominent newspaper columnist and several well-known academics, writers and historians, one of whom has recently published an excellent two-volume biography of John Redmond. Another character who was, until recently, airbrushed out of Irish history as irrelevant and inconvenient, and about whom young people in schools were taught nothing.

I find it interesting that someone who is Protestant and opposed to Irish nationalism and republicanism should automatically be assumed to be a fan of the Lambeg drum. Irish politics is rather more nuanced than that. Unless you happen to be in the North, of course.

 

[ff1d1l]

How could you not love the Lambeg? Perhaps not a music fan at all?

Seriously though, do you own any audio equipment?

What are you doing on this site?

If you do have an interest in audio/music to share perhaps better to stick to it, as an area of potentially common ground. If you're uninterested, perhaps another forum might be more receptive, one where spammers and trolls are prized for their contribution.

 

[-alan-]

Thanks for the info Wald.

Whilst there is a compelling case for closer links in trade and other areas between the UK and Ireland as such close neighbours, I can't see re-adopting the head of the British Royal Family as unelected Head of State requirement ever likely to be an easy sell here. That's not just for those with traditional Republican leanings btw, but even moreso to the younger generations.

edit
(As an aside, whilst most definitely being from the bodhran rather than the lambeg favouring side, I would confess to having developed more of an interest in what they are, and what they are about over the last lot of years. Not so uncommon these days:

http://www.drumdojo.com/j15/world/ireland/lambeg.htm)

 

[MikeMA]

Thanks for that.

Whilst there is a compelling case for closer links in trade and other areas between the UK and Ireland as such close neighbours, I can't see re-adopting the head of the British Royal Family as unelected Head of State requirement ever likely to be an easy sell here.

That's not just for those with traditional Republican leanings btw, but even moreso to the younger generations.

It is possible for a state to be both a Republic and a member of the Commonwealth. Most are. You just have to accept the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth. However, I can see why even that might not have much appeal to the majority of people in the Republic of Ireland, even if they wished for closer economic and cultural ties with the UK.

 

[Waldteufel]

I once saw a documentary about the preparations for the Boyne celebrations in the North. The kerbs were painted red, white and blue. Bonfires were lit the evening before, and people started beating their Lambeg drums as it grew dusk, presumably in an attempt to intimidate the nationalists. Reminded me of two chaps dining in full mess uniform, and one saying: "By jove, Sanders, the natives are restless tonight." They showed a young man beating his Lambeg drum, a fairly immense example, and the skin of the poor thing was slack and out of shape, so much force had been applied to it. His drumming style and general demeanour struck me as a powerful metaphor for the Northern Irish mindset, on both sides. Sheer stubbornness, bloody-mindedness and tribal hatred. I have never set foot in the North, and have no desire to. I recall once being in Eason's bookshop in O'Connell Street, surrounded by the good-natured murmur of familiar Dublin voices. Suddenly, a man spoke to his young son, in a thick Belfast accent. It was like a foghorn, and seemed so out of place.

Yes, I own a great deal of audio equipment, more than I can use at any one time. My LP collection must be 1000-1500, although I have never counted them. As to what I am doing on the site, presumably the same as you, having accepted the same invitation to sign up as you did. I've often noted that established members of forums often resent newcomers, sometimes ignoring their posts and topics for ages, but this thread seems to have taken off.

 

[-alan-]

They showed a young man beating his Lambeg drum, a fairly immense example, and the skin of the poor thing was slack and out of shape

Sounds like some of the lambeg drummers I've seen all right

Back on topic. As for advocating something as sensitive and controversial as the reunion of Ireland (or part thereof) with the Commonwealth - I am genuinely surprised you have never visited the North. For someone with such strong convictions on Irish politics, I would have thought it would have been at least prudent, if not essential, to sample first hand the opinions sentiments there, before throwing your weight behind such a radical course of action - no ?

 

[Cav]

I once saw a documentary about the preparations for the Boyne celebrations in the North. The kerbs were painted red, white and blue. Bonfires were lit the evening before, and people started beating their Lambeg drums as it grew dusk, presumably in an attempt to intimidate the nationalists. Reminded me of two chaps dining in full mess uniform, and one saying: "By jove, Sanders, the natives are restless tonight." They showed a young man beating his Lambeg drum, a fairly immense example, and the skin of the poor thing was slack and out of shape, so much force had been applied to it. His drumming style and general demeanour struck me as a powerful metaphor for the Northern Irish mindset, on both sides. Sheer stubbornness, bloody-mindedness and tribal hatred. I have never set foot in the North, and have no desire to. I recall once being in Eason's bookshop in O'Connell Street, surrounded by the good-natured murmur of familiar Dublin voices. Suddenly, a man spoke to his young son, in a thick Belfast accent. It was like a foghorn, and seemed so out of place.

Yes, I own a great deal of audio equipment, more than I can use at any one time. My LP collection must be 1000-1500, although I have never counted them. As to what I am doing on the site, presumably the same as you, having accepted the same invitation to sign up as you did. I've often noted that established members of forums often resent newcomers, sometimes ignoring their posts and topics for ages, but this thread seems to have taken off.

Whoever you are, you post like someone quoting from some book, or books, you have read.

Why you are posting here is a complete mystery. Why would anyone here give a fig for the RoI joining the Commonwealth when almost no one in the RoI has any such ambition.

 

[russel]

The posts read like an AI chat bot on the fritz.