mandryka
pfm Member
I didn’t know that but I guess my point is that it may be a significant reduction of risk, it may not.
Forced Covid vaccinations
- Thread starter deej92
- Start date
I didn’t know that but I guess my point is that it may be a significant reduction of risk, it may not.
What a great article from the ever excellent Polly Toynbee, powerfully arguing against compulsory care-home staff jabs. She sums up my thoughts brilliantly.
Thanks for sharing Sean. Anyone not sure should read it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/17/compulsory-jabs-care-home-staff-england
Thanks for sharing Sean. Anyone not sure should read it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/17/compulsory-jabs-care-home-staff-england
mansr
Objectionist
How could it be any other way? If viral shedding by an infected person is halved, say, the risk of someone in their proximity receiving sufficient exposure to become ill is also halved. The question is, as you say, how significant that reduction is in practice. I haven't seen any data on that for the Delta variant. No doubt there are people working on it, though.
mandryka
pfm Member
Well , it could be that dose size X and above makes you ill, and even a fully vaccinated person sheds more than X. I'm not a medic -- I'm perfectly willing to be told that what I'm saying is based on some sort of misunderstanding -- I'm just trying to think about it logically.
(Exactly the same with face coverings . . . )
davidsrsb
pfm Member
People from Central America are not welcome in many countries without yellow fever vaccination. I have watched various airlines CEOs saying that this is inevitable with COVID. I presume that at some point they will come up with a vaccination for young children. I have colleagues at work who were infected by 6 year olds, asymptomatic and high viral loads, so it certainly is not safe to allow them to travel. Delta can become infectious very quickly after contact, so the up to 3 days before travel PCR test fails
gintonic
50 shades of grey pussy cats
I had to have one when I went several places in Africa for work....no vax, no travel, no work, no contract.
Interestingly I had two other vaccines "enforced" on me by my corporate travel insurer. They basically said, no cover for specific illnesses in certain countries under certain circumstances. Again my choice; but it was a case of no vax, no insurance, no work, no contract, no pay......my choice of course
Toynbee’s article touches on a number of important themes.
First that a policy of compulsory vaccination would risk further exacerbating an already desperate situation in terms of staff shortages in the care sector. Many care homes, already crippled financially and struggling to survive, would not be able to operate if all unvaccinated staff were sacked.
Then there’s the issue of how the social care sector is treated compared to the NHS. Social care is defenceless and doesn’t have the backing of big unions such as the BMA and RCN and it’s fair to say this government has treated it as the poor relation. Just look at the lack of funding it has received, staff shortages, the lack of PPE which was given to it during the pandemic, the practise of allowing untested hospital patients into care homes, the prevalence of low pay, zero hours contracts amongst staff etc. The care sector has largely been left to fend for itself during the course of the pandemic.
Now despite the heroic efforts of careers during the pandemic and how we all clapped them, the government wants employers to look them in the eye and sack them for not wanting to get vaccinated. An owner of some independent care homes is quoted in the article, questioning how he could do such a thing to staff and he’s right. This policy would be a cynical attempt by the government to pass the blame on to unvaccinated carers who without we would be in a far worse situation during this pandemic.
Then Toynbee highlights the issue of the success of getting more of the vaccine hesitant to be vaccinated, including both men and women and Muslim and Christian groups, either through pop-up clinics in sports stadiums and community centres, targeted engagement with faith leaders or even individual GPs phoning patients.
What is clear is that threatening unvaccinated care workers with the sack is a kick in the teeth and a show of complete contempt to the very people whose heroic efforts have got us through this pandemic. Such a sickening way to treat people but it’s what we’ve come to expect from this Tory government.
How can anyone of left-wing persuasion back this appalling policy?
First that a policy of compulsory vaccination would risk further exacerbating an already desperate situation in terms of staff shortages in the care sector. Many care homes, already crippled financially and struggling to survive, would not be able to operate if all unvaccinated staff were sacked.
Then there’s the issue of how the social care sector is treated compared to the NHS. Social care is defenceless and doesn’t have the backing of big unions such as the BMA and RCN and it’s fair to say this government has treated it as the poor relation. Just look at the lack of funding it has received, staff shortages, the lack of PPE which was given to it during the pandemic, the practise of allowing untested hospital patients into care homes, the prevalence of low pay, zero hours contracts amongst staff etc. The care sector has largely been left to fend for itself during the course of the pandemic.
Now despite the heroic efforts of careers during the pandemic and how we all clapped them, the government wants employers to look them in the eye and sack them for not wanting to get vaccinated. An owner of some independent care homes is quoted in the article, questioning how he could do such a thing to staff and he’s right. This policy would be a cynical attempt by the government to pass the blame on to unvaccinated carers who without we would be in a far worse situation during this pandemic.
Then Toynbee highlights the issue of the success of getting more of the vaccine hesitant to be vaccinated, including both men and women and Muslim and Christian groups, either through pop-up clinics in sports stadiums and community centres, targeted engagement with faith leaders or even individual GPs phoning patients.
What is clear is that threatening unvaccinated care workers with the sack is a kick in the teeth and a show of complete contempt to the very people whose heroic efforts have got us through this pandemic. Such a sickening way to treat people but it’s what we’ve come to expect from this Tory government.
How can anyone of left-wing persuasion back this appalling policy?
mansr
Objectionist
The dose you receive depends on the viral concentration and duration of exposure. If you're near an infectious person for only a short time, even a small reduction of their shedding may lower the dose you receive below the threshold required for infection. Someone who shares a space with the same person for several hours will probably not be so lucky. Still, every prevented infection is a good thing.
mansr
Objectionist
On the other hand, not demanding vaccination shows complete contempt towards those in need of care and protection.
There won’t be any care workers or homes left to treat care home residents if the government had their own way with compulsory vaccinations as so many staff would be sacked. That’s what is showing contempt towards those in need of care and protection.
Typical Tories. Like they did with ‘lockdown rule breakers’ to cover up their own incompetence for their dealing of Covid, they’re doing the same with poor defenceless care homes and the young, low paid, disproportionately BAME workers who reside in them.
Typical divide and rule politics from the Tories. The unvaccinated are now to be shamed rather like immigrants, the young and those on benefits.
gintonic
50 shades of grey pussy cats
all of which politicises the vax of all care workers. It forgets the ethical matter of protecting the most vulnerable.
So you are happy to expose our most vulnerable to a nasty lethal virus? sounds a bit bad to me....
No one will argue against sorting out the care sector, their pay and conditions - but this has nothing, nada, zilch to do with whether they should need a vax to do their job.
Professionalisation of the sector would put it on a better footing, with new contracts mandating a vaccine, would mean care home operators would not be allowed to hire someone without a vax record.
Oh this left winger is a fully paid up card carrying member of the Labour Party.
We all want to protect the most vulnerable and don’t want to expose them to the virus, but I and many others are of the opinion that compulsory vaccinations are not the way to go about dealing with this and in fact risk doing more harm than good.
The government is clearly playing divide and rule politics and looking for someone to blame. Let’s demonise all the unvaccinated, they’re killing granny and keeping us all in restrictions. You’re falling for it hook, line and sinker.
A card carrying Labour Party member who backs a Tory government policy? I thought you would be for the workers, yet you support this government’s demonisation of them.
Seanm
pfm Member
The point is that compelling care workers to vaccinate *won’t* protect the most vulnerable, according to the government’s own experts. If the goal is to get care workers to vaccinate then there are much better ways of doing it. This is pure Covid theatre, designed to appeal to authoritarian, anti-worker sentiment, of which there is plenty in the Labour Party and elsewhere.
It's only a Tory policy because the Tories are in power - any government would implement similar.
If that’s the case, then why as Toynbee’s article states, do the governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have no plans for compulsion?
Instead they have given their care workers £500 pandemic gratitude bonuses.
Ah, the old "we have no plans to..." line. I presume Toynbee goes against popular practise and quotes some sources?
mansr
Objectionist
Only if they are ignorant enough to refuse the vaccine.
It's a non-issue, at least in the many care and nursing homes my wife has worked in; she reports initial nerves followed by adult conversation between staff and management, followed by 100 % or very close to 100% take up. Please note she hasn't worked in every home in the country but keeps in touch with her ex-colleagues.