Flexible low cost speaker cable for Classic Naim Nait 2?
- Thread starter beammeup
- Start date
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
I wouldn’t want this to get into ‘cable bashing/heated discussion’ as they just polarise
the two camps.
My problem ( if that’s what it is ) is looking at matters with a science ‘bent.’
Applying engineering principles, possibly where they aren’t necessary.
I’ve often thought there must be something in cables, as people have strong opinions and air them.
We all hear music in different ways.
The equipment helps us to do that.
Over the years I have put together a main system which ‘suits’ the music I play.
Mainly light orchestral. I love Vaughan Williams’ music.
The system brings out, for me, what Williams was doing.
What he is trying to convey.
A friend in audio retail lent me some different speaker cables.
Some were reasonably priced ( about £25/£30 for a 2 metre pair ) and the other ( about £150 for a two metre pair ) was what I thought were expensive.
I tried them, I really did.
The difference between the two pairs was minimal.
I thought the bass was very slightly more obscured on the lower price pair.
The plugs on the expensive pair were better constructed.
I refitted my generic twisted copper pair ( which I’ve owned for many years ) and, to be honest,
I was totally happy with what I heard.
Make what you will of the above.
If some people can here big differences between cables, then fair enough.
the two camps.
My problem ( if that’s what it is ) is looking at matters with a science ‘bent.’
Applying engineering principles, possibly where they aren’t necessary.
I’ve often thought there must be something in cables, as people have strong opinions and air them.
We all hear music in different ways.
The equipment helps us to do that.
Over the years I have put together a main system which ‘suits’ the music I play.
Mainly light orchestral. I love Vaughan Williams’ music.
The system brings out, for me, what Williams was doing.
What he is trying to convey.
A friend in audio retail lent me some different speaker cables.
Some were reasonably priced ( about £25/£30 for a 2 metre pair ) and the other ( about £150 for a two metre pair ) was what I thought were expensive.
I tried them, I really did.
The difference between the two pairs was minimal.
I thought the bass was very slightly more obscured on the lower price pair.
The plugs on the expensive pair were better constructed.
I refitted my generic twisted copper pair ( which I’ve owned for many years ) and, to be honest,
I was totally happy with what I heard.
Make what you will of the above.
If some people can here big differences between cables, then fair enough.
martin clark
pinko bodger
Simply put the classic Naim design omits the usual output inductor and relies to an extent on specified cable properties instead. Hence the NACA4 / A5 wide-spaced pair for higher distributed inductance in the cable, and a specified minimum length of it.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
...Indeed... bad design as it's also known.
I "designed" (too simple to be termed designed really!) an add on box to remedy the problem with all these types of amps but had only one solitary enquiry! (bizarrely it resulted in the single sale I made for this).
I presume owners of these amps don't believe they are badly designed and assume there is a damn good reason for them being this way...(wrong!). Hence no interest.
I "designed" (too simple to be termed designed really!) an add on box to remedy the problem with all these types of amps but had only one solitary enquiry! (bizarrely it resulted in the single sale I made for this).
I presume owners of these amps don't believe they are badly designed and assume there is a damn good reason for them being this way...(wrong!). Hence no interest.
Craig B
Re:trophile
Hi James,
Your 2972 is a good match for Naim cable on loop inductance (75% of A4/A5 value), however, parallel capacitance is higher by a factor of 3.94. As such, Excel returns 5m minimum and 5.08m maximum lengths, with the minimum matching the recommended 3.5m NAC A5 on loop inductance (3.5µH total), and the maximum length matching 20m of Naim cable on parallel capacitance (320pF total). Series resistance is virtually identical with the Mogami being 0.98 of Naim's (0.0088 vs. 0.009Ω/m)
Obviously, the ideal length of 2972 is 5.04m.
Craig B
Re:trophile
You should have called it 'Matchbox 20', like I suggested, Jez.
They would have flown off the shelves like an amp on fire!
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
I do love all these recommendations for speaker cable.
Names like Mogami 2972 are intriguing.
I wonder what ‘2972’ signifies ?
I did like the Monster cable advert. I saw a long time ago.
Noel Lee standing by a door with the title ‘Cable Lab’ on it.
Even more intriguing.
I’d like to know how much science is actually involved ?
Here’s a true story.
An audio engineer friend at Solid State Logic ( mixing desk manufacturer ) told me they
were asked to wire a standard desk with very special cable.
A long reel was purchased, which was sanctioned by the buyer.
The desk was built and tested.
It measured & sounded exactly like a desk wired with normal Studiospares commercial cable,
which they always used.
They had some cable left, so decided to use it to make up some cables.
The plugs, etc. were fitted and SSL management decided to package them,
and sell them off as specials to past customers.
They were all sold and the proceeds were put up to pay for the Staff Christmas dinner.
It was the best dinner for many years.
Everyone was happy...
Names like Mogami 2972 are intriguing.
I wonder what ‘2972’ signifies ?
I did like the Monster cable advert. I saw a long time ago.
Noel Lee standing by a door with the title ‘Cable Lab’ on it.
Even more intriguing.
I’d like to know how much science is actually involved ?
Here’s a true story.
An audio engineer friend at Solid State Logic ( mixing desk manufacturer ) told me they
were asked to wire a standard desk with very special cable.
A long reel was purchased, which was sanctioned by the buyer.
The desk was built and tested.
It measured & sounded exactly like a desk wired with normal Studiospares commercial cable,
which they always used.
They had some cable left, so decided to use it to make up some cables.
The plugs, etc. were fitted and SSL management decided to package them,
and sell them off as specials to past customers.
They were all sold and the proceeds were put up to pay for the Staff Christmas dinner.
It was the best dinner for many years.
Everyone was happy...
davidsrsb
pfm Member
The actual minimum length will depend on the speaker capacitance, something never published. ESLs look like pure capacitance above 20 kHz, but even conventional speakers can have the crossover bass filter inductor go self resonant at low ultrasonic frequenciesHi James,
Your 2972 is a good match for Naim cable on loop inductance (75% of A4/A5 value), however, parallel capacitance is higher by a factor of 3.94. As such, Excel returns 5m minimum and 5.08m maximum lengths, with the minimum matching the recommended 3.5m NAC A5 on loop inductance (3.5µH total), and the maximum length matching 20m of Naim cable on parallel capacitance (320pF total). Series resistance is virtually identical with the Mogami being 0.98 of Naim's (0.0088 vs. 0.009Ω/m)
Obviously, the ideal length of 2972 is 5.04m.
beammeup
pfm Member
OK this thread is demonstrating the fact that you don't have to use a Naim NAC speaker cable to achieve the same results in getting the best from an old Classic Olive Shoebox Nait 2 with 'many' other alternatives to choose from! Many more than I would have guessed.
As someone here eluded to earlier, solid core wasn't the normal cable used during the period of classic Naim builds - so solid core looks promising. DNM and Atlas cables are both reputable cables and are both solid core.
In fact my old AudioQuest F14s in the garage unused are solid core come to think of it.
Whatever cable I choose - I want to just leave it in place for regular amps too.
Oh forgot to mention the cables I use now are Van Den Hul Snowline <-- perhaps they are suitable anyway ???
Info about the Snowline here: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/van-den-hul-the-snowline-speaker-cable-custom-length
As someone here eluded to earlier, solid core wasn't the normal cable used during the period of classic Naim builds - so solid core looks promising. DNM and Atlas cables are both reputable cables and are both solid core.
In fact my old AudioQuest F14s in the garage unused are solid core come to think of it.
Whatever cable I choose - I want to just leave it in place for regular amps too.
Oh forgot to mention the cables I use now are Van Den Hul Snowline <-- perhaps they are suitable anyway ???
Info about the Snowline here: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/van-den-hul-the-snowline-speaker-cable-custom-length
I think 2972 is just a catalogue number, Mogami make a vast range of cables for pro music industry use and I don't think there's any hidden meaning in the number!
Tried several copper cables with the Nait. From thin 0.65mm^2 47 labs, to noname single core about twice thicker, to average gauge multi strand copper, to thick old AQ. They sound non spectacular in the good sense, with a simple thicker = weightier sound equation. Others were too tonally skewed.
The first (breakable) and last are not flexible.
The first (breakable) and last are not flexible.
Craig B
Re:trophile
I was just reading about these yesterday, and noticed a pattern, Peter.
Mogami 'conventional' bulk speaker cables starting with 'W2' have 2mm² or 2.5mm² conductors (2.5mm² in 4, 6 or 8 conductor configurations), whereas, those starting with 'W3' have 4mm² conductors (in 2 or 4 conductor configurations).
"W2972 is designed to be 2mm² which is ideal conductor size where it is necessary to combine two conductors (quad-connection) to fit a 3.5mm² crimp terminal."
Craig
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
I would have thought both.
That is, if you are a believer in cables...
That is, if you are a believer in cables...
martin clark
pinko bodger
Zero need, in a Nait, for that.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
The thinner cables are adding enough resistance to reduce the speaker output at the lowest impedance frequencies, usually either side of the upper port resonance. This might well be enough to sound thinner, but also faster.