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Fast bass?

cooky1257

cooky1257

pfm Member
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

"The first thing we must know is that bass itself is not particularly fast. Virtually any woofer, even those with heavy cones can easily reproduce bass frequencies with every scintilla of speed present in that bass. So don’t buy a bunch of baloney about low-mass woofer cones leading to "high-speed bass" -- it just isn’t going to happen"
 
Probably very true when one is considering drivers, though that's only part of a loudspeaker. I'd argue most bass issues were down to ports and cabinet resonances. As an example I'd describe my Tannoys as being very good drive units in very bad cabinets - I can alter the bass response by a significant amount just by altering how the back-panels are attached to the rest of the cab (e.g. screwed on tightly with many screws, loosely with some, not at all with none)!
 
I have no comment Cooky but suspect this thread is going to run to more than a few pages with some interesting 'theory' as well...Oh boy..
 
This is bit off subject but is a related timing issue.
Does your system time correctly or does any component detrimentally change the timing?

A few years ago, when I could lift heavier speakers around the house, I directly compared the timing of my regular small Shahinian speakers -which have a very small rear reflex port- and an excellent condition pair of slightly larger old Kef Corellis, a sealed box design with an accurate low frequency range. The rest of the system was mid line olive Naim. Both speakers sound excellent in their different ways but I was not concerned with sound quality but with timing. I played a Christmas blues track by a well known singer through the speakers. I was a bit surprised to hear that, relative to the Shahinians, the Corellis made the performance seem a bit slower, less involving and, most importantly, the vocal performance at times seemed ‘just ordinary’. The Shahinians restored the timing and the performance and ‘were just right’.

Timing seems an absolutely crucial factor in correct music reproduction and I wonder how many manufacturers get this right.

My piano tuner occasionally plays in a local jazz combo. At a concert, he was watching some hand clapping to music by a well known jazz singer. He said “ ..No, no, it’s all wrong , clapping to the beat , not on the off beat –syncopation –to give the ‘swing’. Again, does your hifi system allow this timing aspect to come through?
 
Electrostatic bass is faster than moving coil bass. That's my recent experience but I wonder if this is an ill-founded generalisation, especially if you take horn enclosures into the equation.

Theoretically, I can see how this is so, but I wonder if this faster bass is par for the electrostatic course, so to speak. Hybrids don't apply, of course.
 
Mike Reed said:
Electrostatic bass is faster than moving coil bass. That's my recent experience but I wonder if this is an ill-founded generalisation, especially if you take horn enclosures into the equation.

Theoretically, I can see how this is so, but I wonder if this faster bass is par for the electrostatic course, so to speak. Hybrids don't apply, of course.
Click to expand...

I'd argue that was again down to cabinets and loading, or more precisely the lack thereof. I'd expect the "fastest" moving coil bass to come from an open baffle.
 
Maybe it would be a good idea to decide what "fast" means wrt bass:

a) The transducer has to achieve a high velocity
b) The transducer has to start and stop at the right time = good transient response
c) something else?

As far as I am concerned "b" is vital and "a" is not neccessary to achieve "fast" sounding bass.
 
Yes, transient response; I think what most people mean by 'fast' bass is something at least critically damped that integrates well with the rest of the spectral output of the speaker with group delay not measured in weeks - and nothing to do with actual 'speed'.

Easiest way for some manufacturers to get 'fast bass' of course was actually 'no bass' ;)
 
Tony L said:
Probably very true when one is considering drivers, though that's only part of a loudspeaker. I'd argue most bass issues were down to ports and cabinet resonances. As an example I'd describe my Tannoys as being very good drive units in very bad cabinets - I can alter the bass response by a significant amount just by altering how the back-panels are attached to the rest of the cab (e.g. screwed on tightly with many screws, loosely with some, not at all with none)!
Click to expand...

Have to agree with you on this one from personal experience of my Dimension 12s. I got sooooo fed up with them a few days ago fiddling with positioning and supplied bungs to get rid of the simply AWFUL plodding sound I bunged the ports up as much as I could, solid stuffed they are. Now....very very nice thank you very much. Whoever was responsible for the original design should be taken out and shot, brought back to life and shot again. Quite how someone would willingly part with the 6000 odd quid they cost new with the ports not bunged up is beyond me. I have only myself to blame for buying them via e-Bay from a decent dealer chappy trusting only in the name and reviews....Tannoy..."you can't go wrong with Tannoy"...really..???? as obama used to say.."OH YES WE CAN"...
 
I've been busy with the tape measure to give a more objective opinion. I measured the speed of the bass with the back of the speaker on, hanging off, with a hole in the side, smashed in front and back and from the bottom of a skip.

The measurements show absolutely that the bass was fastest when the speaker was been driven away by the skip lorry.
 
Exactly, the stock sound system in the Nissan GTR discussed in recent thread would have fast bass.
 
Surely bass should be as fast (what does that mean btw) as it is supposed to be?

If one knew that - how I am not sure - it should be relatively easy to measure differences in speed through a system where only the speakers changed?
 
gassor said:
I've been busy with the tape measure to give a more objective opinion. I measured the speed of the bass with the back of the speaker on, hanging off, with a hole in the side, smashed in front and back and from the bottom of a skip.

The measurements show absolutely that the bass was fastest when the speaker was been driven away by the skip lorry.
Click to expand...

Driven by a (Quad 405) current dumping amp., no doubt.:)
 
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