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expanding my opera "collection"

Gents, a quick update. I've ordered the following:

Puccini - Madame Butterfly (EMI) (Renata Scotto, Carlo Bergonzi, Orch. e coro del teatro dell’ opera di roma/Barbirolli), EUR 4.89, EUR 4.89
Puccini - La bohème (Columbia, Box) (Maria Callas, Guiseppe Di Stefano, Anna Moffo..Orch. & Chorus of La Scala, Milan/Votto), EUR 9.50, EUR 9.50
Strauss, R. - Der Rosenkavalier (EMI) (Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Eberhard Wächter..Philharmonia Orch. London/Karajan), EUR 7.65, EUR 7.65

No Wagner, but to appease Vuk I at least crossed the Alps going north and included the Strauss set.

Edit: I had also written a mini essay on the artificiality of classical vocal styles but realised that my English is no longer precise and dexterous enough to whip up a few paragraphs of "deep stuff, man, really deep" in a few minutes. Chances are most of you would have misunderstood the thrust of my arguments. As part of my job, I read literature every day (sometimes even write it) -- marketing literature. That can be fun and challenging, but I must start reading more real literature again.
 
Thomas K said:
I had also written a mini essay on the artificiality of classical vocal styles but realised that my English is no longer precise and dexterous enough to whip up a few paragraphs of "deep stuff, man, really deep" in a few minutes.
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thomas.

one of the things that strikes one seeing a classical vocalist for the first time is how loud they are without amplification--often singing over top a massive orchestra. it takes a lot of training to accomplish such a feat, but then is playing a violin or scoring a goal from 30m out also not "artificial"?

perhaps you were instead thinking of the mannerisms your country-mate dietrich fischer-dieskau exhibited whilst engaged in the act?

how about new country twang, auto-tune or hipster folk?


vuk.
 
There is the first part of a Wagner thing on BBC Radio 4 tomorrow...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4g74

The trailers have sounded interesting. Not sure if you folk in the Dominions and Commonwealth can get a hold of it directly. If not - yell and I'll see if I can download and send on.

On another topic - Boito's Mephestophele - any good modern recordings you would recommend?

(I'm a sucker for a nice sounding L'altra Notte In Fondo Al Mare - tart that I am)


(One of my favourite quotes from Frasier - ""Gay? I should have guessed. How many straight men remember Renata Tabaldi")
 
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jonathan.

colonial assistance would be appreciated in the wagner matter. i have iplayer, but can't record with it and the broadcast is at an inconvenient time.

as for tebaldi, should i be worried that i've known who she was since about age 12?



vuk.
 
one of the things that strikes one seeing a classical vocalist for the first time is how loud they are without amplification--often singing over top a massive orchestra. it takes a lot of training to accomplish such a feat, but then is playing a violin or scoring a goal from 30m out also not "artificial"? ... how about new country twang, auto-tune or hipster folk?
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Vuk, my first long-term gf studied church music at the Meistersinger-Konservatorium in Nuremberg. At the time I regularly came into contact with fellow students of hers and their professors. I'm well aware that the artificiality largely stems from the techniques used to achieve range, pitch stability etc.

Anything I would call "art" I would also consider artificial to some degree, so yes, the violin and country twang too. But let's face it, classical vocals are as far removed from natural language and singing as you get, particularly when it comes to vowel shaping.

With all these things, it can take a while to appreciate how artificiality is used to achieve an overall artistic goal. I've found that easier to do with country, for example, but that also means the illusion is more likely to crumble at any given time, ie when I hear country music I can appreciate what's good about it but if I step back and look at it on a superficial level, the silly twang and the repetitive song patterns can instantly make me shudder. Seeing as it's taken me decades to "get" opera, there's a chance that the illusion stays intact longer, or even when I step back to survey the mechanics of it all.
 
Thomas K said:
Anything I would call "art" I would also consider artificial to some degree, so yes, the violin and country twang too. But let's face it, classical vocals are as far removed from natural language and singing as you get, particularly when it comes to vowel shaping.
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I'm in the same boat - the affected 'over-singing' has been a real barrier to my enjoying opera, often I find it sounds as exaggerated and ridiculous as some hopeless X-Factor contestant attempting some awful Mariah Carey vocal obstacle course. I just can't keep listening. By saying that every now and again I hear something that is just so mesmerisingly beautiful and 'right' (e.g, Schwarzkopf, Strauss Four Last Songs) that it makes me reconsider and I go looking again, but I've never been comfortable with it as a musical form. I'm rather pleased Bach never wrote an opera!
 
Regarding Operatic style and the comparisons to other artificial musical genres - the one notable point about opera is that it is limited to the performance, whereas a country singer or rapper will carry a lot of their vocal style to everyday speech patterns. For me this makes opera the most "artificial".

As Thomas and Tony say it does set an obstacle to be overcome. I have only done so in part, and find most operas are a lot of fill with the occasional gem hidden within. I'd like to "get" the whole.
 
vuk said:
perhaps you were instead thinking of the mannerisms your country-mate dietrich fischer-dieskau exhibited whilst engaged in the act?
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I too find the classically trained voice to be a "barrier to entry". For me the male trained voice is more of a problem than the female, as it seems more affected. And Lieder singing has the biggest barrier for me.
 
guys, seriously? i thought i'd never hear arguments like this from my peers once i'd left high school for good.

don't like none o' that fancy french queezeene. just gimme some nice deep-fried chicken. now that's real cookin'!

tony: bach's cantatas are his best works and there's plenty of "artificial" singing in there too.


vuk.
 
vuk said:
guys, seriously?.
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Yes, seriously. Thinking about it it is the more "singy" bits of opera I love - such as the magnificent "Soave sia il vento" from Cosi fan tutte. This sounds very natural, whereas some of the more "dialogue" based pieces sound a little odd to me.
 
vuk said:
jonathan.

colonial assistance would be appreciated in the wagner matter. i have iplayer, but can't record with it and the broadcast is at an inconvenient time.

as for tebaldi, should i be worried that i've known who she was since about age 12?



vuk.
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Nah - in most modern western societies being aware of Tebaldi is considered a normal and perfectly healthy thing.

You have an mp3 in your inbox as well.
 
Vital said:
Yes, seriously. Thinking about it it is the more "singy" bits of opera I love - such as the magnificent "Soave sia il vento" from Cosi fan tutte. This sounds very natural, whereas some of the more "dialogue" based pieces sound a little odd to me.
Click to expand...

this why you need to upgrade to wagner ;-)



vuk.
 
vuk said:
colonial assistance would be appreciated in the wagner matter. i have iplayer, but can't record with it and the broadcast is at an inconvenient time.
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Let me know if you need this recorded, and haven't secured it from another member. There was a cycle at the Edinburgh Festival a few years back that I recall was quite highly regarded, and I tried to record it all onto DAT, but now that I look back, I seem to be missing a tape or two. The remainder still spans seven tapes, though....

Despite the fact that I recorded it, I'm still unconvinced of any merits it may or may not have, I'm afraid.
 
If the OP is still around, why not tune in to the regular opera broadcasts that come up on Radio 3, and see if any of those take your fancy?

A free way of sampling them, and guiding your buying choices thereafter.
 
vuk said:
this why you need to upgrade to wagner ;-)
vuk.
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Hmm, when I've tried in the past it has left me cold.

I have ordered the DVD sampler (for which thanks to Stunsworth BTW) to see if the visuals are the missing link.
 
Tony L said:
I'm in the same boat - the affected 'over-singing' has been a real barrier to my enjoying opera,
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By coincidence I was playing Britten's Peter Grimes today ( with Pears , c.1958 I think) and , in the final scenes of the last act, was struck by how much the singing reminded me of Scott Walker on Drift - I think Walker uses a very opera like phrasing on his most recent records.

No one has mentioned Debussy's "Pelléas et Mélisande" which is one of my most played - not an aria based opera but more one that merges the vocal lines and the orchestration.

I first fell for Opera via Puccini's Il Trittico, especially Suor Angelica. I can take or leave much of Puccini these days but I still tend to prefer women's voices in opera to mens.

Kevin
 
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