Ethernet Cable Shoot Out – Shunyata, AudioQuest, Supra, Viablue, Ugreen
- Thread starter The Chronicals
- Start date
The Chronicals
Disruptor
No crusade, no insults, no need for a poll, this is just a thread based on personal experience for others who have an interest. I appreciate you dont particularly have an interest in the reviews, hence my confusion as to why you post on this thread discounting it. Tony has been trying to make the forum more accessible and safe for threads like this to continue without the usual cyclic arguments being formed.
You can always form your own poll/thread, for your own 'crusade' as you say?
Any information in the public domain is free to use in the public domain.
My posts are removed that are the replies to the 'troll' posts that have been removed, to avoid the thread becoming confusing and not reading correctly.
May I ask, what is a 'dog' if not of the canine kind? Genuine question. I appreciate this is off topic, so if needed, I can start a new thread or PM if preferred.
misterdog
Not the canine kind
My name is Frank Furter.
Julf
Facts are our friends
Something is definitely going on, but hard to tell if it is at all related to the cables in question. Fair enough - it is a "shoot out", not an objective, scientific test.
Unfortunately it seems the OP isn't interested in making the test more objective, and is happy to have his beliefs confirmed.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Ah that makes sense. A lot of sense.
But what is a dog if not of the canine kind? PM is fine if you don't want to answer publicly.
Marky-Mark
pfm Member
I don't find it difficult to ignore a cable thread, shoot-out or otherwise. I've tossed turds in them, sure, but on an order of magnitude less in number than the threads I've ignored. What's harder to ignore is when a cable thread is at least partly a troll in itself, and I truly believe this one qualifies given its tone and that a good third of the replies amount to a perpetual passive-aggressive fire watch by the OP. Which only stirs up more of that which is ostensibly being discouraged, and so is equally deserving of the bin in my honest opinion.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Only negative posts receive a somewhat defensive response, naturally. It's very easy to mock/ridicule/not be supportive on an internet forum, therefore these responses generally won't get a supportive reply.
After receiving a considerable number of emails with lots of questions by many that do no want to post on the thread to avoid waking the lurking aggressors such as yourself, the inherent problems are not (entirely) with me. I just have the balls to handle them in a certain way to avoid further engagement into their cyclic arguments, and some don't like that, and feel somewhat hurt and victimised by my lack of response to their antagonistic debate in the way they wanted. Some, mostly those mentioned, feel this may be passive-aggressive because they cannot combat it and it infuriroates them, they failed at their 'rise'.
I admit, occasionally I do fall into their trap and become a little more pro-aggressive with reactions, but I am learning to skim their anger with politeness more of the time than not.
cooky1257
pfm Member
Just think of the mission critical applications where bog standard cat 5/6 does the bit perfect transmission job-nukes, power stations, LHC, MRI scanners, Server farms, financial sector...etc,etc. This thread is worthy of a Paper such is the revelatory nature of the discovery.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Not sure they have Hifi audio there running through those cables though. I'd hope they don't.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
Or the cable is actually transmitting an analogue of a digital signal. A truly digital signal would switch on and off instantly, with no ringing, delay, sag, etc.
G
Guest432
Guest
How do think streamed music gets from Tidal/Qobuz/Apple etc to your home?
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Have you ever been to a data centre, like your streaming service provider uses? Regular CAT6 everywhere
Julf
Facts are our friends
That is why ethernet has a receiving circuit (after the galvanic isolation) that starts by using a voltage comparator so that anything above a "mid-way" signal is seen as a "1", and anything below is seen as "0", and then follows that with a circuit that reclocks the data.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Magical fairies bring it to me on a plate of saffron and cocaine.
but yeah, of course, cables, everywhere...and I do agree with this to a certain extent, but swapping out the end point cable yielded these results for me, this isn't something that didnt happen, so it was a win for me by ignoring this data bits are bits logic. It might be for someone else as well, hence my review. Theres also a lot of info about this on other forums and that its not quite as black and white, binary, as the common belief says it is on this forum, if I come across the articles again, I will post the threads.
The problems with these things is that it starts by suggesting it's a blind test, but not under any sort of controlled conditions, there seems to be no technical considerations at all, it turns out that only one of about 5 ethernet cables is being replaced and the other ones are shielded, which should be avoided for audio data cables, and the choice of test tracks are all pretty much the same (vocal plus electro/acoustic backing) and one heavy metal. There is no reference to any of the manufacturers' claims or design considerations.
The OP then recommends a cable without actually indicating he knows its design, but being CAT 6a and almost certainly well made, whether by accident or not its probably a perfectly good cable with no characteristics. For £300 it's a lot of money to even suggest people go off and buy it. I have nothing against the brand, indeed I use their power cables and conditioner and have spent more than 10 times as much with them this year.
Here's a little guide as to why ethernet cables are twisted pairs.
https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/data-center/some-interesting-twists-about-ethernet-cabling/
A similar approach (and focus on reducing inductance) can be found with Kimber speaker cables. I mention those because they do not have an outer shield. Likewise, CAT cables do not need an outer shield, indeed it is damaging, unless you really need one - basically very long runs where there is exceptional potential noise, where cables are bunched or there are lots of power lines. Data centres yes, home audio no.
Shunyata describe three technologies in use, the first one being PMZ:
https://shunyata.com/products/digit...tal-cables/ethernet-cables-venom-alpha-sigma/
The most fundamental of three critical ethernet cable technologies is termed Precision Matched Impedance (PMZ). Designer Caelin Gabriel’s research into high-speed signal transmission found that the precision with which digital cable conductors are constructed has a profound impact on performance. Loose manufacturing variances lead to signal distortions that are clearly audible in a system designed for high fidelity. To achieve the benefits of PMZ, Shunyata Research produces the Venom, Alpha and Sigma ethernet conductors using extrusion and shielding processes designed to reduce phase distortion caused by characteristic impedance irregularities. This process reduces the micro-distortions associated with common ethernet cables. While costly, this process delivers superior timing, clarity, and dynamics in sound when used in a media sound system.
The patented Belden bonded pairs are designed to do exactly the same thing, i.e. avoid impedance irregularities, which is why the Blue Jeans cables using Belden strands are so popular, plus the fact that they do not have an audiophile premium. They also have a slightly higher twist than most CAT cables,
If you look at the AudioQuest website
https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet/cinnamon
Solid conductors eliminate strand-interaction distortion and reduce jitter. Solid silver-plated conductors are excellent for very high-frequency applications, like HDMI audio. These signals, being such a high frequency, travel almost exclusively on the surface of the conductor. As the surface is made of high-purity silver, the performance is very close to that of a solid silver cable, but priced much closer to solid copper cable. This is an incredibly cost effective way of manufacturing very high-quality HDMI cables.
You will see that the cable design is more aimed at VHF applications, like HDMI audio. There is no mention of low inductance or the fact that ethernet cables are twisted for a reason, which goes back over 100 years. To the contrary, their design seems completely focused on shielding and isolation. The use of silver is given based on the assertion of VHF signals passing close to the surface of the conductor and it is better conducted through silver than copper.
I have no non-ethernet cables other than my speaker cables. I use Townshend Isolda, which follow the same principle of close impedance matching and very close pairs that basically exclude RFI, so they don't need any shielding. The conductors are simply covered by braid.
http://www.townshendaudio.com/isolda-speaker-cables/
The OP then recommends a cable without actually indicating he knows its design, but being CAT 6a and almost certainly well made, whether by accident or not its probably a perfectly good cable with no characteristics. For £300 it's a lot of money to even suggest people go off and buy it. I have nothing against the brand, indeed I use their power cables and conditioner and have spent more than 10 times as much with them this year.
Here's a little guide as to why ethernet cables are twisted pairs.
https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/data-center/some-interesting-twists-about-ethernet-cabling/
A similar approach (and focus on reducing inductance) can be found with Kimber speaker cables. I mention those because they do not have an outer shield. Likewise, CAT cables do not need an outer shield, indeed it is damaging, unless you really need one - basically very long runs where there is exceptional potential noise, where cables are bunched or there are lots of power lines. Data centres yes, home audio no.
Shunyata describe three technologies in use, the first one being PMZ:
https://shunyata.com/products/digit...tal-cables/ethernet-cables-venom-alpha-sigma/
The most fundamental of three critical ethernet cable technologies is termed Precision Matched Impedance (PMZ). Designer Caelin Gabriel’s research into high-speed signal transmission found that the precision with which digital cable conductors are constructed has a profound impact on performance. Loose manufacturing variances lead to signal distortions that are clearly audible in a system designed for high fidelity. To achieve the benefits of PMZ, Shunyata Research produces the Venom, Alpha and Sigma ethernet conductors using extrusion and shielding processes designed to reduce phase distortion caused by characteristic impedance irregularities. This process reduces the micro-distortions associated with common ethernet cables. While costly, this process delivers superior timing, clarity, and dynamics in sound when used in a media sound system.
The patented Belden bonded pairs are designed to do exactly the same thing, i.e. avoid impedance irregularities, which is why the Blue Jeans cables using Belden strands are so popular, plus the fact that they do not have an audiophile premium. They also have a slightly higher twist than most CAT cables,
If you look at the AudioQuest website
https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet/cinnamon
Solid conductors eliminate strand-interaction distortion and reduce jitter. Solid silver-plated conductors are excellent for very high-frequency applications, like HDMI audio. These signals, being such a high frequency, travel almost exclusively on the surface of the conductor. As the surface is made of high-purity silver, the performance is very close to that of a solid silver cable, but priced much closer to solid copper cable. This is an incredibly cost effective way of manufacturing very high-quality HDMI cables.
You will see that the cable design is more aimed at VHF applications, like HDMI audio. There is no mention of low inductance or the fact that ethernet cables are twisted for a reason, which goes back over 100 years. To the contrary, their design seems completely focused on shielding and isolation. The use of silver is given based on the assertion of VHF signals passing close to the surface of the conductor and it is better conducted through silver than copper.
I have no non-ethernet cables other than my speaker cables. I use Townshend Isolda, which follow the same principle of close impedance matching and very close pairs that basically exclude RFI, so they don't need any shielding. The conductors are simply covered by braid.
http://www.townshendaudio.com/isolda-speaker-cables/
The Chronicals
Disruptor
I believe the improvements become less noticeable up the food chain with most things hifi related. Similar to DAC's etc. Theres a huge difference between a £500 and a £1500 one, but not so much between a £1500 and a £3000 one in my experience. The rewards are reduced for the outlay, and I don't have endless finances to search for those tiny snippets after a certain point
So there's a financial line I draw, and I wouldn't spend a grand on any cable. Some who can afford it may, so fair play to them, each to their own.
Marky-Mark
pfm Member
Well, assuming that the considerable messages you've received will not be entered into evidence, I've hardly any choice but to reject that summarily.
Lurking is not deserving of a pejorative since not every reader posts, but that's exactly what you're implying with "lurking aggressors such as [my]self"
I see no "lack of response" on your part because your posts amount to roughly 1/3rd of the thread's volume.
In a quick summary of it all, considerable numbers of cable buyers are victimized to the point they write you privately rather than post; 'lurking aggressors' are hurt and victimized by your 'balls', and some readers who happen by all this emotional carnage may think you're passive-aggressive since they're rhetorically neutered and infuriated and so can't join the trolling because ... I guess their posts will be deleted or they'll suffer emotional damage. I'm not sure at this point which one. What I am sure of is this thread appeared at the tail of a longer ethernet cable thread (quite a coincidence, that) and as always, the squeakiest wheels get the grease. Meaning this post has at least a 50-50 shot of vanishing. It's all just so f'n silly.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
I used to use Townshend Isolda's, I loved them for a period for found they sacrificed body for clarity, I now use Mogami, which I wouldnt say is'better' than the Townshends, but in my current setup they sounded better for how I wanted it to sound. The Isoldas where too bright for me.
I have read your info on the difference in build, and yes I can understand what you are proposing but the Belden did not sound as good as the Shunyata to me. I mean, we are talking minute differences here, unlike those found in the Isolda Vs 3104, but it's there.
Your info does relate why the Supra just isn't good as the end stream cable, but its brilliant as the modem to router cable, hence why I may have stumbled across a great setup with the Cat 8 in my main data runs and the Shunyata Cat 6A in my end point, just from trial and error and experimentation.
I imagine the very same people opposing many of the results of this thread would also challenge your belief in mains cables and wrapping tin foil round your Isolda's though, for me I'd definitely love to try a Shunkyata mains cables, but the decent ones are way up the financial ladder for me. Any chance of a loaner?
No one suggested anyone spend £300 though. Thats the point of a review, its just information for others to absorb, or not. You could buy the Viablue one if it fitted your sentiments more, or the Audioquest. You also classed a £2K streamer as an entry level device, and spend £3k on mains cables, but £300 on an ethernet cable is a lot. This is where I am confused..I am not judging at all, each to their own, but its just a bit odd.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
My earlier point made so well. Cast rested. Don't be a hater Marky Mark, let yourself breathe and be free from the toils of anger. You'll become a better person for it.
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