Electric Boiler

[gez]

So the summary is replacing an existing gas boiler with an electric one isn't worth it? Despite being more efficient than a gas boiler they're a) expensive to install and b) more expensive to run.

Correct or not?

If yes, thanks you can continue with your argument about heat converters which I never asked about.

 

[gez]

Gez,

I have a system almost identical to yours, with new boiler and cylinder changed 18 months ago. Due to failures of the old and new boiler in recent years, hot water was via immersion heater for one or two week periods. Believe me, the difference in cost of this energy usage versus gas was very significant AND I was on a low 24 month fixed Octopus tariff started prior to the hikes. My consistent month by month readings and statements facilitate accurate analyses.

I'd imagine having, say, a 12kW directly heated shower versus one where hot water is derived from the cylinder (as is mine) would also be vastly more expensive, as, of course, the enormous discrepancy in kW hour costs between electricity and gas would suggest regardless.

The above is from a a plumbing and technical numpty with eagle eyes on domestic costs.

Am I reading you correctly? You're saying it's more expensive than gas right?

 

[PrettyVacant]

We have an all electric hot water cylinder attached to a couple of thermal solar panels on the roof. I often go through the summer months without hardly ever having to use the electric side.

The one thing I am looking at changing is that my system is quite old and needs to be manually switched between the two modes and I would like it to be automatic, so if for instance if one used all the hot water at night (I have two teenage daughters) the electric part would kick in without my intervention.

I do realise that there is an immediate cost implication installing such a system but for me it feels like it works in the long term.

 

[stevec67]

So the summary is replacing an existing gas boiler with an electric one isn't worth it? Despite being more efficient than a gas boiler they're a) expensive to install and b) more expensive to run.

Correct or not?

If yes, thanks you can continue with your argument about heat converters which I never asked about.

(a) I wouldn't know. I suspect yes if you need to upgrade the incoming electricity supply and CU to cope with the load, probably not if the existing wiring (80/100A incoming fuse etc) can cope.
(b) Yes, they will be more expensive to run, all things being equal, because electricity is 2x - 3x the cost per unit energy of gas at the point of use. Storage heaters used to get around this by letting you get the energy in for next to nothing overnight and then releasing the heat when you needed it. I remember that my parents had Economy 7 where all water heating was done after midnight along with washing machines etc. This isn't going to fly if you run the heating in the evening at peak times, which we all do. Interestingly, I remember my parents bought a new house with electric warm air heating in 1972. This was in a village with no gas, so the alternative was oil and there was an oil crisis on. It was rather expensive, I remember them complaining. 50 years on, lots of things have changed, but it shows that the gas vs electric debate is nothing new.

That said the British mentality of minimal insulation and cranking up the heating is a massive problem here as it is grossly inefficient

(Tigger's point)
I think part of this is historic, where houses were fitted with chimneys, and part climatic. The UK is never especially hot or cold, but one thing it always is is wet. It's always humid. Couple this with low quality housing, often without even a cavity wall or a proper damp course in many cases, and you have a real problem with humidity. The cheap fix for this when coal was cheap was to run a fire. My parents grew up in a mining area, the mining families had a coal allowance so generous that it was difficult to burn it all. Fast forward 70 years to the days of sealed windows and doors, double glazing, and insulation, and the lack of ventilation has things going mouldy. I know that there are solutions in the form of forced ventilation via HX to minimise energy loss, but it's still a problem. Look at the recent cases of mouldy houses in grotty bits of London and sick or dying children.

 

[dweezil]

I know enough about you from your posting on this subject to safely say you know nothing about ASHPs. You may be very knowledgeable on other subjects and I must say I'd never thought of you as an abrasive sort until now.

Saying I'm full of shit is extremely rude and shows you up for the sort of nasty little sort you obviously are.

I'll leave you to your ignorance.

EDIT: I see either you or the mods have removed your post... if the mods want to delete this one they can.

I suspect a big part of the efforts to dis ASHPs is that nobody wants to be pushed into spending a fortune on something they don't understand.

I've got a neighbour who's been running one for 30 years and is happy with it.

Contemplating a quote i'd be looking at c£3.5k for a 16kW unit which doesn't sound too bad if i can do a cheap install. The plumbing looks simple if i can connect directly to the 28mm feeds for HW and CH and house is already well insulated with a big HW tank. The existing 19kW oil boiler never struggles.

Heating performance should be ok as the ASHP only gets towards 3:1 as we drop to 2C.

Only expensive bit will be HW.

Looks straightforward when the oil boiler dies.

 

[dweezil]

So the summary is replacing an existing gas boiler with an electric one isn't worth it? Despite being more efficient than a gas boiler they're a) expensive to install and b) more expensive to run.

Correct or not?

If yes, thanks you can continue with your argument about heat converters which I never asked about.

ASHP will cost about the same to run, conventional electricity will cost about 3x gas.

 

[stevec67]

I suspect a big part of the efforts to dis ASHPs is that nobody wants to be pushed into spending a fortune on something they don't understand.

I've got a neighbour who's been running one for 30 years and is happy with it.

Contemplating a quote i'd be looking at c£3.5k for a 16kW unit which doesn't sound too bad if i can do a cheap install. The plumbing looks simple if i can connect directly to the 28mm feeds for HW and CH and house is already well insulated with a big HW tank. The existing 19kW oil boiler never struggles.

Heating performance should be ok as the ASHP only gets towards 3:1 as we drop to 2C.

Only expensive bit will be HW.

Looks straightforward when the oil boiler dies.

As a point of reference I paid £2.5k installed for a new gas boiler of similar size in 2020. The basic boiler was about £1500, to that you can add flue kits, some piping, etc. The rest is labour. 2 men, a short day, it's a decent hourly rate.

 

[dweezil]

Electric boiler = horrendous EPC rating.

In theory shouldn't that depend on your electricity supply contract?

 

[dweezil]

As a point of reference I paid £2.5k installed for a new gas boiler of similar size in 2020. The basic boiler was about £1500, to that you can add flue kits, some piping, etc. The rest is labour. 2 men, a short day, it's a decent hourly rate.

That fits, we don't get a plumber out of bed for £250 a day here.

 

[kensalriser]

In theory shouldn't that depend on your electricity supply contract?

Not for the EPC it doesn't, the assessor can't guess that. But as above, electricity is much more expensive than gas for domestic heating except for seven hours in the night if you have an Economy 7 tariff, and in that case you'll be paying more on your daytime rate. So an electric boiler is great if you want all your heat and hot water during the night, otherwise you'll just be paying more money and potentially making your house more difficult to sell.

 

[Mick P]

There is a new law slowly being introduced in Spain, region by region, that the water of a new build villa must be heated by solar panels. Apartments are exempt from this new law but for villas, there is apparently no exception.

Possibly we should follow this.

 

[Tony L]

IIRC they have sunshine in spain.

 

[stevec67]

IIRC they have sunshine in spain.

Where's your sense of adventure Tony? I thought you would love to have solar powered hot water and look forward to your lukewarm shower once a month in Lancashire. I know I would here in Yorkshire. Eeh, we useter DREAM of evvin' a 'lukewarm shower after t'pit, but forrus it worra wipedown w' a wet rag once a fotneet whither we needed it or not!

 

[CHE]

So the summary is replacing an existing gas boiler with an electric one isn't worth it? Despite being more efficient than a gas boiler they're a) expensive to install and b) more expensive to run.

Correct or not?

If yes, thanks you can continue with your argument about heat converters which I never asked about.

We have an electric boiler in our annex. It runs underfloor (wet) and heats hot water to a cylinder.

Expensive to install ? No, in fact it was cheaper than alternatives due to its simplicity and it was significantly smaller in volume such that it could be hidden better. It's been a perfect choice for us.

Expensive to run ? Well it is now ! But then so is oil and gas; I don' know how they compare these days.

I did look carefully at running induction water heaters to each hot water outlet as had been suggested above. It looked a great idea on paper but in practice it was proving impossible to get good information of performance, even getting a demonstration proved impossible with the products that looked good. In the end the idea was ditched and we just went with a hot water cylinder which we managed to find space to fit eventually.

CHE

 

[PrettyVacant]

IIRC they have sunshine in spain.

Where's your sense of adventure Tony? I thought you would love to have solar powered hot water and look forward to your lukewarm shower once a month in Lancashire. I know I would here in Yorkshire. Eeh, we useter DREAM of evvin' a 'lukewarm shower after t'pit, but forrus it worra wipedown w' a wet rag once a fotneet whither we needed it or not!

I think you'd both be surprised how little sun you need to heat the water fully up to temperature with thermal solar panels as I do here in so sunny London.

 

[zeon]

Where's your sense of adventure Tony? I thought you would love to have solar powered hot water and look forward to your lukewarm shower once a month in Lancashire. I know I would here in Yorkshire. Eeh, we useter DREAM of evvin' a 'lukewarm shower after t'pit, but forrus it worra wipedown w' a wet rag once a fotneet whither we needed it or not!

Eee up Lad !!

 

[kensalriser]

There is a new law slowly being introduced in Spain, region by region, that the water of a new build villa must be heated by solar panels. Apartments are exempt from this new law but for villas, there is apparently no exception.

Possibly we should follow this.

Every new build should have had energy self-generation capability for years. Commercial property too. Another failure of government.

 

[notaclue]

So the summary is replacing an existing gas boiler with an electric one isn't worth it? Despite being more efficient than a gas boiler they're a) expensive to install and b) more expensive to run.

Correct or not?

If yes, thanks you can continue with your argument about heat converters which I never asked about.

Yes, it is the cost to run. Gas is a lot cheaper in the UK.

Here am the up-to-date facts (from the Commons Library where you always get good facts):

"Under the current direct debit cap the average price of gas is 7.4 pence per kilowatt hour (p/kWh), the average price of electricity 28.6 p/kWh. Average standing charges are 29.6 p/day for gas and 53.3 p/day for electricity. The average price of gas under the direct debit cap will fall to 6.0 p/kWh, the average price of electricity will fall to 24.5 p/kWh. Average standing charges under this cap will increase to are 31.4 p/day for gas and 60.1 p/day for electricity."

Eventually, we will have electricity from nuclear fusion like the sun and then we can have cheap electric boilers.

 

[kensalriser]

Ah, nuclear fusion. The energy of the future, and always will be.

 

[gez]

Ah, nuclear fusion. The energy of the future, and always will be.

Never say never, but I agree it does always seem to be "maybe in 10 years from now"