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(ECM) Piano Recording Technique and KJ's Groans

J

Johnny Blue

I made it to 'Member'!
I was listening to a Keith Jarrett solo piano recording last night, and it struck me that his groans always seem to come from very much the right-hand side of the sound stage: how come? I haven't sat and checked all my KJ solo piano recordings (I have them all, even the newer ones on shiny silver discs), so it might not be a constant, but I'm curious as to how ECM record a piano so that it results in his 'voice' being totally to the right.

In fact, I've always been a bit curious how (solo) pianos are recorded in any case: they usually sound low notes left, high notes right, which makes sense as it replicates the effect of if I was sitting at the keyboard, but the recorded sound is obviously set much further back, in a concert hall, or wherever. I suppose pianos are recorded in this way to get some stereo spread, but, on reflection, it's not a particularly realistic exposition of how a piano sounds in a concert hall.

(BTW, I'm not having a moan about the groans: they don't bother me at all, as I hear them as part of the ecstasy/abandonment that he reaches when playing, so please don't turn this into a KJ-groan-moan! Also, if this thread should be in the Audio forum, please feel free to move it.)
 
I think if you imagine a sort of 45 degree angle onto the piano with KJ sat sort of middle right in the image.
 
I've read somewhere with ECM live recordings its five microphones — three more or less in the piano as a stereo triad and a summed back with a 35° downward point and two atmos at the lip of the stage. Engineer Jan Erik Kongshaug usually sets up the recording and Manfred Eicher directs as the producer, no secret they like the Classic old Neumann U87 and the new M149 and they seem to use Schoeps Mics as well presumably for venues you'd not take an old Neumann into! Studio-wise they say they don't play much with ambience mikes but I know I read Eicher liked to record the empty space before the musician started and trickle a bit of atmos at the start and end.

There are many ways to record a Piano and sometimes its determined not by the space its recorded in but the mechanism and sound of the piano. Every engineer takes with them their own idea on how best to capture the sound. The 70s favoured huge ambience and overhead hung mics for a warts and all sound, the 90s saw close mics and contact mics and this usually follows technical developments in microphones and additive reverb. I think close mic piano really caught on with digital recording.

Recording Solo Piano is very different to recording Piano in an ensemble. Every engineer is different. Its part of their art. This is a nice piece on Piano Mic setup we were pointed at by a lecturer, but its only just one way.

Jarret favours his left ear so I am guessing he turns his head to the right when he groans?
 
If you're recording a solo instrument it makes sense to mic it closely and fill the stereo field with that instrument. It also avoids problems with people moving about in the audience & that kind of thing.
 
Johnny Blue said:
If you read the liner notes to 'Testament', you'll find the (rather sad) answer to this question!

(BTW, thanks Fox, this is just the kind of info I was hoping for!)
Click to expand...

Care to enlighten us what it is?

For a live concert (and many Jarrett recordings are live), the piano is, of course, positioned so that the strings are parallel to the front edge of the stage. Looking at the Tokyo 2002 video, it would seem that there are two mics on stands in front of the piano as the audience sees it. The left hand one is over the treble strings and the right hand one over the bass. (There's a mic (or a pair) further away - closer to the audience - which might be for ambience. There are also more cables on the stage than are needed by two mics so maybe there are some other mics.)

It seems, though, that the pair on stands are the main ones and, therefore, if they are picking up Jarrett's grunts, it makes sense for the one over the treble strings (on the left) to pick up more than the other which is simply further away (because the bass strings are longer).

My active Isobariks have been excellently set up according to the instructions (ie close to the wall) so I don't get much of a soundstage with any recording. In the case of Radiance (the CD equivalent of the video), I get a sort of glorified mono which, in truth, is what you'd hear if you had attended the concert. However, if in fact the stereo spread puts the bass to the left and treble to the right, then the origin of Jarrett's grunts would appear to be biassed towards the right.
 
Who said aktiv isobariks get positioned close to the wall??????


it isn't in ANY of the instructions i have read.(quite the opposite)


There is no excuse for poor soundstaging from isobariks (especially active ones)
 
fox said:
Jarret favours his left ear so I am guessing he turns his head to the right when he groans?
Click to expand...

Is it not more simple than that? Jarrett leads predominantly with his right hand. He lives on the upper half of his piano.
 
Like I said, I'm guessing but as a head has the ability to move independently of ones hands he tends to listen with his left ear looking at the right -- after watching him play live (on DVD, must see him before he dies).
 
david ellwood said:
Who said aktiv isobariks get positioned close to the wall??????
it isn't in ANY of the instructions i have read.(quite the opposite)
There is no excuse for poor soundstaging from isobariks (especially active ones)
Click to expand...

That was the conventional wisdom when I bought them secondhand in 1998, and the two dealers who have breathed on my system in its current venue (including the one who set it up) are amongst the top Linn dealers in the country.

However, this was also the advice for Saras, and I remember getting an excellent soundstage form them by pulling them way out into the room. The trouble with the Isobariks is that, unlike the Saras, I cannot pick them up and move them around. Maybe when my dealer hasn't anything better to do, we'll experiment...
 
FWIW, every time I have seen KJ play, the piano is lined up keyboard left and the rest of the piano to the right - ie we are 90 degrees to the keyboard.

I only ever listen closely to the LP mixes of albums like Koln Concert and "My Song", but to me the KJ noises come from a bit left of centre. If you're hearing it on the right of the sound stage it is probably an artificial effect of your stereo system.

cheers
Cliff
 
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