Domestic vaccine passports

[Seeker_UK]

You can have a carrot AND a stick.

 

[mansr]

You can have a carrot AND a stick.

A sufficiently large carrot can be used as stick.

 

[Dave H.]

Steve Baker was given plenty of shouting room about this on R4 the other day. He hates the idea, and embarked on a rant including total fantasies about the government being able to use vaccine passporting as an excuse to use your phone to create a database of scans of people’s faces.

So on the sole basis that I think Baker is a despicable arse and anything that makes him unhappy must be a good thing, I support the idea whole heartedly.

 

[sean99]

But you -are- required to wear a crash helmet and have insurance.

Yes, and in my post I was suggesting that this is quite reasonable, but unrelated to the reasonableness of a COVID vaccination passport - apologies if I was not clear.

 

[Woodface]

I voted yes with the caveat that it must only apply to the over 40s. The young should be able to do as they please.

 

[mandryka]

It is nothing like a driving licence.

Not even a teeny weeny bit?

Let me try another way. If you want to work in a British primary school, you have to have a Criminal Clearance Check to verify that you have no history of inappropriate sexual or violent crime, and you have to show it before you're allowed have any contact with the children. The check is a way of limiting risk to the pupils.

Same logic with the passport. It's a way of limiting risk to pub users.

 

[sean99]

I voted yes with the caveat that it must only apply to the over 40s. The young should be able to do as they please.

I don't understand this. If you are over 40 and unvaccinated you are risking your own health. If you are under 40 and unvaccinated you are risking the health of others.

 

[Hoopsontoast]

The main talking point appears to be around Pubs, and as part of a hospitality sector that has been one of the worst hit in the last year.
I can't see many people in that sector actively turning ANY punters away if they can help it.

For me, I think its a step too far. I'm looking forward to have the vaccine when its rolled out to my age group, and certainly I think its likely to be essential for international travel.

Domestically, there are a group of people who can't have the vaccine for health reasons, I'm not sure stopping them using hospitality is fair. It will also require people to check, and I am not comfortable, say when popping to the pub, to take medical details with me.

We are always going to have Covid floating around, the same as Flu, do we say not allow people who have not had the Flu vaccine into pubs to protect others? Where do you stop?

 

[Woodface]

I don't understand this. If you are over 40 and unvaccinated you are risking your own health. If you are under 40 and unvaccinated you are risking the health of others.

For the simple reason that the vast majority of deaths are on the 65+ age range. The vaccines are pretty much 100% effective against the worst outcome.

If you insist that the rules apply to all it over impacts upon the young, as they will be the last to be vaccinated, so will be disadvantaged for longer.

 

[Cav]

Not even a teeny weeny bit?

Let me try another way. If you want to work in a British primary school, you have to have a Criminal Clearance Check to verify that you have no history of inappropriate sexual or violent crime, and you have to show it before you're allowed have any contact with the children. The check is a way of limiting risk to the pupils.

Same logic with the passport. It's a way of limiting risk to pub users.

No passport = no pub, no restaurant, no theatre, no cinema, no museum, no public transport, no shopping, no job, no being allowed anywhere where the vaccinated are allowed. That is the consequence of your logic.

 

[mandryka]

No passport = no pub, no restaurant, no theatre, no cinema, no museum, no public transport, no shopping, no job, no being allowed anywhere where the vaccinated are allowed. That is the consequence of your logic.

The new normal. It’ll be a bit like leper colonies for some. With a bit of luck they’ll find a way of giving it to people with an allergy to it.

 

[mansr]

No passport = no pub, no restaurant, no theatre, no cinema, no museum, no public transport, no shopping, no job, no being allowed anywhere where the vaccinated are allowed. That is the consequence of your logic.

What if the alternative is no pub, restaurant, theatre, cinema, etc for anyone? In that case, there may not even be a pub any more when it is deemed safe to open without restrictions.

 

[Cav]

What if the alternative is no pub, restaurant, theatre, cinema, etc for anyone? In that case, there may not even be a pub any more when it is deemed safe to open without restrictions.

Vaccine passports are a political gimmick aimed at the fearful. Seems to be working already. Your papers!

 

[simon g]

There are many issues surrounding this entire topic. One of which is this:

Were vaccine' passports to be introduced, what would they look like and how would they be used? I have the NHS app (in addition to the Covid app). The security issue is well addressed; photo ID has to be uploaded, identity checked electronically plus you have to take a short video of yourself talking a few numbers. This is all then subject to a final manually performed review before health record access is allowed. So, use this app then?

Well, the app doesn't have a photo of the registered user on display, so if this app is used to show vaccination status. how does the person/organisation that's being shown it know that not relates to the holder (someone else could carry your smartphone)?

What about those that don't have or want a smartphone. Even amongst those that have smartphones, do they all want to go through the rigmarole of registering, etc. There are very many who don't have smartphones; should they be excluded just on the basis of that choice? There are many in my part of the world that are in their 70s and 80s who don't have smartphones. Many do enjoy going down to the social club for a drink though. Is it game over for them on that score then?

OK, so don't use a smartphone app (I have seen talk of using the Covid app, but again no photo is shown on that and no identity checks inbuilt). Paper document then?

So, the NHS sends all that have received both doses of vaccine a certificate. Still no photo on that; the NHS does not have photos as a normal part of your health record. Hence, anyone with a certificate could just lend it to others, along as they looked about the same age and sex of the named holder. Plus the potential for forgery is immense.

Even if a foolproof method is developed, what then? OK, you go to the pub. You show your document to whom? When? (on entry, or drinks order, or..?). It may be a QR type code. Who pays for the scanning equipment. Will the QR code bring up your photo? (doubt it, so see problems above). Suppose you enter in to a pub and don't show your pass and nobody asks? Who's going to 'police' it all? The onus may well be on the publican, but in reality will there really be inspectors (or police) going in to pubs and asking everyone for their vaccine pass? We're now in to very dangerous territory.

Publicans could well say 'no pass, no entry. But that means paying people at the door permanently checking on all who enter. Who pays for that? Plus, suppose entry is gained through use of a fraudulent document; who's responsible for that? Who would even know? (unless we have those roving inspectors).

It's far too early to pass judgement on this until the actual mechanics, in some detail, are published.

 

[sean99]

For the simple reason that the vast majority of deaths are on the 65+ age range. The vaccines are pretty much 100% effective against the worst outcome.

But the vaccinated are not at risk, and the unvaccinated are only risking their own health, so what is the purpose of the passport ?

If you insist that the rules apply to all it over impacts upon the young, as they will be the last to be vaccinated, so will be disadvantaged for longer.

Another good reason to have no passport at all.

 

[matt j]

I keep reading it as 'Domestic Violence Passports'.

I think the worry is if that if "covid will be with us for a very long time" as they keep telling us, then as the old saying goes, ' there's nothing more permanent than a temporary government measure'.

 

[mansr]

Vaccine passports are a political gimmick aimed at the fearful. Seems to be working already. Your papers!

Fear? Do you see any open pubs at the moment? I sure don't. You're probably right about it being a gimmick, though.

 

[Hoopsontoast]

To be fair, my local pub has already said unless its law, they won't be asking for Vaccine Passports. They will however be taking cute photos of dogs instead.

 

[ff1d1l]

I voted yes with the caveat that it must only apply to the over 40s. The young should be able to do as they please.

And their immunity to covid is well known.
FFS.

 

[Woodface]

But the vaccinated are not at risk, and the unvaccinated are only risking their own health, so what is the purpose of the passport ?



Another good reason to have no passport at all.

The younger age groups are very low risk among themselves, the at risks will already be vaccinated. It just down to managing the risks without perversely disadvantaging certain groups purely by dint of age.

We certainly need some form of certificate for foreign travel but that is a different subject.