Does connecting a streamer to Ethernet make much difference compared to wifi?

[Woodface]

Yes and it has been done.

One of the test methods we use is called POLQA and measure/test up to Super Wideband (14 Khz) so is comparable to the frequency range most of us can hear for music.

The sample file is a PCM 16/28 looping frequency sweep but I also created my own in audacity using Blondie's "hanging on the telephone"



The tests include taking the sample file converting it from analogue to digital sending it over a WAN and converting it back to analogue at the far end and then capturing that as a file. The software then compares the source file to the captured file and determines how much the original has been degraded.

That again is a similar method to how music is streamed over the internet to your home and converted to analogue via your DAC.

Interesting. I’m guessing cables probably make little difference

 

[Woodface]

Yes, I think some of the small differences are overstated, but that is with reference to how my hearing was a couple of years ago. Sadly my hearing now isn’t up to discerning even very obvious differences, and that is my point, we are often talking not so much about equipment differences so much as our hearing ability. Now I could, but wouldn’t be so arrogant, dismiss things just because I couldn’t hear them now! I could, but wouldn’t be so super arrogant, accuse people of selling foo (as has happened to posters in this thread) just because I can’t discern what it does now. That doesn’t mean that their aren’t charlatans in the industry selling outrageous foo but if we personally don’t have the hearing to assess things then we are down to the measurement brigade and are at the mercy of their methodology, not to mention ideology. Sometimes one just has to accept that one doesn’t know, one way or the other.

Typically hearing loss due to age is, as you say, a ski slope in the upper frequencies, perhaps iirc with a notch at around 1.5 kHz due to exposure to damaging loud sound, well within the region that affects our listening to music, particularly if you consider harmonics. Hearing loss might not affect each ear equally and that is before you get into the esoteric world of reverse slope hearing loss. It is of course much more complex than just frequency response; I mentioned ossicular fixation as just one possible problem. If those tiny bones in the middle ear aren’t transmitting vibrations to the inner ear properly then it will likely affect our ability to discern the effects of noise under discussion.

All I’m saying is that just because we, individually, can’t hear something it doesn’t necessarily mean that others can’t.

The problem is that we can’t prove either way whether someone can hear a difference. Double blind testing can help but who bothers, we are full of unconscious bias. I remember borrowing an expensive cable, I thought I could hear a difference but when I swapped my existing interconnect back I wasn’t so sure.

My dealer said that 60% of his customers could hear a difference but he was far from surprised that I couldn’t. In the end I bought a new telly, I could definitely tell the difference between that & my old one

 

[adamdea]

I remain bemused about why the solution to an RF issue is to insert a random device not designed to filter RF into the chain as opposed to an RF filter. Of course that would matter more if it were a real rather than imagined issue, but even so..

 

[Leeken]

I remain bemused about why the solution to an RF issue is to insert a random device not designed to filter RF into the chain as opposed to an RF filter. Of course that would matter more if it were a real rather than imagined issue, but even so..

I can’t help but wonder why we’re not all daisy chaining 20 switches with only 10 cm of cable in between

 

[Allan Probin]

I’m very much on the side of the argument that says electrical noise entering equipment via Ethernet cables can pollute ground planes, clocks, etc. but perhaps the data waveform itself is just another form noise that unfortunately must be allowed in. We’re probably doomed and we all should just go back to CD players and turntables.

 

[camverton]

The problem is that we can’t prove either way whether someone can hear a difference. Double blind testing can help but who bothers, we are full of unconscious bias. I remember borrowing an expensive cable, I thought I could hear a difference but when I swapped my existing interconnect back I wasn’t so sure.

My dealer said that 60% of his customers could hear a difference but he was far from surprised that I couldn’t. In the end I bought a new telly, I could definitely tell the difference between that & my old one

Part of the problem, if it is a problem, is the need to prove things. Why not just accept we’re not sure or don’t know? Mind you, I suppose we’d miss out on the fun of folk accusing each other about things that, in the grand scheme of life, matter very little. Now music - that does matter!

I think a lot of differences in hifi are sufficiently small that it is difficult to determine if they are real or imagined. To my mind the only thing that really matters is whether something distracts from my enjoyment of music. If one, say, DAC irritates or distracts me a bit and another doesn’t than the latter is what I use. The reason why one distracts and the other doesn’t isn’t really important. As I always say, it’s what we think we hear that really matters.

 

[Woodface]

Part of the problem, if it is a problem, is the need to prove things. Why not just accept we’re not sure or don’t know? Mind you, I suppose we’d miss out on the fun of folk accusing each other about things that, in the grand scheme of life, matter very little. Now music - that does matter!

I think a lot of differences in hifi are sufficiently small that it is difficult to determine if they are real or imagined. To my mind the only thing that really matters is whether something distracts from my enjoyment of music. If one, say, DAC irritates or distracts me a bit and another doesn’t than the latter is what I use. The reason why one distracts and the other doesn’t isn’t really important. As I always say, it’s what we think we hear that really matters.

My overall view is to make a big change or don’t bother. I went from a full naim passive system to an ATC active set up. I much prefer it.

My default is generally that I’d rather spend thousands on new speakers than, say, a fancy cable loom.

 

[paulfromcamden]

My default is generally that I’d rather spend thousands on new speakers than, say, a fancy cable loom.

So long as people are having fun I don't really care. I used to love pottering about hi-fi shops in Tokyo and marvelling at power cables the size of your arm and supports made from rare and exotic woods. It's not for me but I do admire that level of obsession and barminess.

I'm suspect lots of folk with £££ digital systems would think I'm a bit weird for spending Saturday mornings hunting for scratchy old jazz records.

No right or wrong so long as we don't take any of it too seriously.

 

[TheFlash]

Because you don’t want to hear your system at is best? Or couldn’t afford to buy one? As @tuga says, you can get a lot of benefit from installing an enterprise switch and UTP cable just before your streamer.

Why a dose of scepticism? Is there something wrong with an open mind?

Bit aggressive sales patter. Let it go, I don’t own a streamer with any local files on it. Hence not relevant right now. I am considering one however having just unearthed a cd drive for ripping duties. I am curious about this whole area is all. And yes, I think the cables and switches you lot are touting are a touch pricey to say the least.

Hardly aggressive. I mentioned a much much cheaper way of testing the same but you appear to have ignored that.

Why do you mention "a streamer with any local files on it" rather than "a streamer"?

 

[TheFlash]

My overall view is to make a big change or don’t bother. I went from a full naim passive system to an ATC active set up. I much prefer it.

My default is generally that I’d rather spend thousands on new speakers than, say, a fancy cable loom.

Likewise. No fancy cable loom here and my ATC actives are going nowhere. A simply amazing experience every time I listen to/with them, and mine are merely the 40s.

 

[TheFlash]

I remain bemused about why the solution to an RF issue is to insert a random device not designed to filter RF into the chain as opposed to an RF filter. Of course that would matter more if it were a real rather than imagined issue, but even so..

What sort of random device? If you mean a switch, they are better RF filters than all the (passive) supposed RF filters I've ever tried.

Why "imagined" issue? Seriously, you're still thinking that sellers and buyers are kidding themselves here?

Don't worry, both rhetorical questions.

 

[TheFlash]

I can’t help but wonder why we’re not all daisy chaining 20 switches with only 10 cm of cable in between

Daisy chaining only makes a sonic difference if the switch is sub-optimal. 10cm would be great though!

 

[Jubal]

Hardly aggressive. I mentioned a much much cheaper way of testing the same but you appear to have ignored that.

Why do you mention "a streamer with any local files on it" rather than "a streamer"?

That’s how it came across. Internet streamer is all I have at present. WiiM. I see no point in testing when the sources are in the ether.

 

[TheFlash]

That’s how it came across. Internet streamer is all I have at present. WiiM. I see no point in testing when the sources are in the ether.

Then you misunderstand what a switch contributes and how. Most people using one do so precisely to improve the sound quality of streamed music not locally stored files.

I think we are probably both happy to leave it there for now. Enjoy your Sunday.

 

[Woodface]

Likewise. No fancy cable loom here and my ATC actives are going nowhere. A simply amazing experience every time I listen to/with them, and mine are merely the 40s.

So are mine, I’ll hopefully get some 50s in the next couple of years

 

[onlyconnect]

Sure, ethernets are performing more or less like other digital cables when you need 1k+ for the source to really shine. Obviously there’re some bargains as usual with a very good price/performance ratio, for me it’s AQ Carbon for example, but there is a huge sq potential in the higher price segments. As for the question about interconnects, I’ve tried about 20 different options from £30 till £2,5k, again there‘re bargains like DNM or Linn Silver but truly strong performance comes around 1k for the used cable.

This kind of bollocks largely destroyed my enthusiasm for this hobby. You have to bear in mind that when an ordinary person seeks advice from an expert they are inclined to trust what they say. Thus someone might go into a hifi shop (or onto an internet forum I guess) and ask how they can improve their audio experience. If they walk out with a fancy ethernet cable that will "sound" identical to any in-spec ethernet cable they have been scammed. The question then becomes: who can you trust? Because most of us who are not audio engineers or scientists are vulnerable. And once you have lost your trust, even those who give good advice suffer.

PS "sound" in quotes because an ethernet cable makes no difference to the sound, it does not have a sound, it merely carries a network connection.

 

[Fourlegs]

Then you misunderstand what a switch contributes and how. Most people using one do so precisely to improve the sound quality of streamed music not locally stored files.

Just on this I sort of disagree with you there. I almost exclusively play locally stored files and yet i notice a significant improvement when playing these if I use a good switch connected to my streamer playing these files. I attribute this to the noise in the local network which gets into the streamer and hence the dac even though I am not streaming the music from Qobuz or the like. Don’t forget that most playback software communicates between the streamer and the controlling device almost continuously throughout the playing of the locally stored file.

 

[vacuum_tubes]

Just on this I sort of disagree with you there. I almost exclusively play locally stored files and yet i notice a significant improvement when playing these if I use a good switch connected to my streamer playing these files. I attribute this to the noise in the local network which gets into the streamer and hence the dac even though I am not streaming the music from Qobuz or the like. Don’t forget that most playback software communicates between the streamer and the controlling device almost continuously throughout the playing of the locally stored file.

I assumed he was referring to "local storage" as USB storage attached to the streamer.

Implying that internet streamed media is different to locally streamed media would be utterly stupid.

 

[Jubal]

Then you misunderstand what a switch contributes and how. Most people using one do so precisely to improve the sound quality of streamed music not locally stored files.

I think we are probably both happy to leave it there for now. Enjoy your Sunday.

It’s amazing I can get to 14 pages of the thread and still not be clear on why and wherefore. Surely locally stored files are streamed from a NAS or other storage? That setup was what was under discussion I thought. It’s what I have waiting to be populated anyway.

 

[vacuum_tubes]

It’s amazing I can get to 14 pages of the thread and still not be clear on why and wherefore. Surely locally stored files are streamed from a NAS or other storage? That setup was what was under discussion I thought. It’s what I have waiting to be populated anyway.

This has nothing to do with the OP anymore, leave him out of this