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do turntables sound the same

flatpopely said:
And yet Teddy Pardo, LesW and now Naim have developed regulator circuits that remove noise that gets passed initial regulation and the improvements can be measured ergo they sound better ergo mains had an effect.
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ultrawomble said:
That's a novelty. Most things that supposedly make an improvement do so outwith the scope of measurement. Or am I just being cynical? ;)
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Improvements can be measured, but it doesn't follow that the result is a better sound. It will only sound better if the "before" was audibly flawed relative to the "after".

Some manufacturers use measurements as a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.

S.
 
sergeauckland said:
Improvements can be measured, but it doesn't follow that the result is a better sound. It will only sound better if the "before" was audibly flawed relative to the "after".

Some manufacturers use measurements as a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.

S.
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So now I'm confused, are you saying that not all improvemts can be measured?
 
flatpopely said:
So now I'm confused, are you saying that not all improvemts can be measured?
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No, that measured improvements don't always result in an audible improvement. It's back to this issue of thresholds of audibility. If noise is reduced from -90dB to -100dB that's a significant measureable improvment but is it audible? It depends on many factors. If the -90dB resulted in audible noise, then reducing it to -100 could well be an audible improvement, but if -90dB was effectively silent, then reducing that to -100dB or even -150dB wouildn't make it any better.

With mains, I don't get, and never have had, any audible noise that wasn't normal amplifier hiss with a bit of 100Hz buzz. No whistles, clicks or other audible noises that could be from the mains. Consequently, filtering wouldn't result in any improvement in my own case, and with my own equipment, as there's nothing to improve. Others could well have different issues that might be solved by filtering, but in that case, I'd argue more that the equipment had inadequately filtered power supplies.

S.
 
He isn't.

He's saying that some measured improvement don't result in audible improvements.

If I do something to improve the noise floor or say your dac from -129 to -130dB the difference won't be audible.

With regard to better regulators and measuring the benefit, this needs to be done at the output of the circuit being driven. You don't listen to the PSU, you listen to the output from the amp, dac, or whatever, so that's where you need to measure.
 
Robert said:
He isn't.

He's saying that some measured improvement don't result in audible improvements.

If I do something to improve the noise floor or say your dac from -129 to -130dB the difference won't be audible.

With regard to better regulators and measuring the benefit, this needs to be done at the output of the circuit being driven. You don't listen to the PSU, you listen to the output from the amp, dac, or whatever, so that's where you need to measure.
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But that example is an irrelevance and to use it would therefore would be contradicting the principle of if it sounds better then it must measure better.

mat
 
Rob, you listen to the output of the speakers- with your ears. So the logical thing to do is measure brain activity and nothing else. As after all that is all that matters, how you perceive the sound.
 
sq225917 said:
Rob, you listen to the output of the speakers- with your ears. So the logical thing to do is measure brain activity and nothing else. As after all that is all that matters, how you perceive the sound.
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Absolutely Simon, but up-thread they are talking about certain regulators measuring better than others. That's great - but what matters is how the circuit being driven responds to a given regulator.
 
mmaatt said:
But that example is an irrelevance and to use it would therefore would be contradicting the principle of if it sounds better then it must measure better.

mat
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It isn't irrelevant, and there is no such principle.

Certainly it isn't something I've ever come across.

Mick P said:
Chaps

About ten years ago I was speaking to a former manager of Garrards at a formal dinner in Swindon and he knows more about turntables than you lot put together.

He said that all a TT is designed to do is to turn a record at a smooth and fixed RPM. In theory all TTs should sound the same but in practice the better engineered ones sound infinitely better than the rest.
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Hmmm..... the second sentence rather contradicts the first!
 
:D - yes.

For clarity, I meant 'knows more about turntables than you lot put together' followed by 'all a TT is designed to do is to turn a record at a smooth and fixed RPM'

A huge number of people would take issue with that :)
 
Robert said:
:D - yes.

For clarity, I meant 'knows more about turntables than you lot put together' followed by 'all a TT is designed to do is to turn a record at a smooth and fixed RPM'

A huge number of people would take issue with that :)
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Well if a tinker, tailor or a candlestick maker really thinks they are qualified to contradict the statements of the chief engineer of the 301 and 401 then so be it.
 
Mr Pig said:
It could be just the weather itself. The warmth might be making drive-unit surrounds more supple, that sort of thing. Air density will be different too.
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Yup ! Lots of variables could constitute the changes, but after twenty-odd years (and in many domiciles) of experiencing this, I'll stick to my belief.
 
sergeauckland said:
Some manufacturers use measurements as a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.

S.
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Gosh, Serge. You do seem to resemble that remark ! Pot calling kettle black and all that, though I don't disagree with your statement.:D

You may use every technical argument to support the premise that there's little or no difference between running one's hifi off the normal domestic ring and having a discrete radial circuit or many, but the reality is an increase in dynamics, ergo s.q. There's no contest. As for filters, well: nuff sed !
 
I heard my first Well Tempered Amadeus yesterday evening.
For sure, modern decks of this nature, including my own Nottingham Ace Space, have a solidity and rock solid presentation that floaty decks seem to not manage. Maybe floaty decks are kinder to the music and flatter it somewhat, making whatever you play sound 'nice' by some clever editing and putting another log on the fire.
It's personal preference of course, and rather than massive differences between individual decks, it appears to me that the main differences are between engineering philosophies, and those differences are very obvious. I can easily hear that the Amadeus & my Notts are singing off the same hymn sheet and I'm glad I didn't have to choose between them at the time.
I have yet to hear a top notch idler deck in a proper current system, but imagine it would be different yet again.

Turntables do not sound the same and I think that the character of the overall system has to be considered so that a balance is reached that is neither boring, or so hard that it gives you a migraine.
 
In the space in which I reside - " Only if one is broken? ".

I'll never in my 33 in this hobby, even remotely come across two turntables that sounded similar. Yet I'm into the high mass option as opposed to spring loaded versions.

If they all sounded the same - we could've ended this years ago and the entire planet would've listeners stuck in front of LP-12's. But after owning two different vintages of said table. I'm in a different is not better sounding to my ears camp these days.

I'm not knocking what others like - it's just to me - in my space - in my system and more importantly to my taste. The WTA is where I'm done chasing my tail on the endless pursuit of perfection. I much rather focus what time I've left on the planet chasing " Vinyl ".

' Nuff said,
o_O scar
 
In my 30 year experience of hi-fi, both as a consumer and a manufacturer, this is the first time I have come across anyone claiming turntables sound the same! Presumably, blind people also make qualitative judgements on photography forums!
 
Rasher said:
I heard my first Well Tempered Amadeus yesterday evening.

It's personal preference of course, and rather than massive differences between individual decks, it appears to me that the main differences are between engineering philosophies, and those differences are very obvious. I can easily hear that the Amadeus & my Notts are singing off the same hymn sheet and I'm glad I didn't have to choose between them at the time.
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Is the W.T. a mass deck? Never seen one but I didn't think it was. Also thouight ALL N.A. decks were 'massy', if not quite as much as the Dais.

'Singing from the same hymn sheet' suggests that they have similar presentational characteristics. Again, I'm surprised by this.
 
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