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DIY ES9018 Dual Mono Build

Ok thanks all, looks good, I will order one ;)

Sneaking suspicion I am entering the slippery road to Buffalo territory :D

Alan

Before you do order the WaveIO Board, do consider the Amanero Combo384. Some people have recorded that the WaveIO and the Combo384 are the best sounding USB to I2S devices - however, the Amanero has several advantages in that :
It can do DSD over USB - pretty unique!
It can act as an I2C Master for controlling the Sabre Registers so no need for Arduino.
It is cheaper
It is smaller.
However, it does not have in-built I2S isolation (like the WaveIO does) so if you need feature, then seperate add on DIY board is available.
 
Thanks Chaps
Also noted this thread http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/99-es9018-diy-dac-board/
And a warning about bridged traces:eek:



Alan

The board has been revised an improved a few times over since those comments Alan - so whilst configured for stereo mode as standard, all eight channels are now available. It does need the traces between the D2-D5 input terminals (see earlier photos) to be cut to do eight channel mode - I don't think anybody around here would use it as multichannel so good as currently configured....:)
 
It looks like a very nice board Avinash, I am very envious.
It looks like a great board for bodging with, it is a four layer?
 
The quality of the board is not the best I have ever handled but I guess it is pretty ok. It isn't four layer, just two, with the bottom ground planed. The good thing about it in terms of bodging is that virtually every terminal is accessible so it allows you to do virtually whatever you want.
Therein lies the fun, in deciding what and how etc.
I am just trying to put my thoughts together as to how to configure the whole thing (at least initially) as this impacts on BOM and parts to order etc.
Actually the first thing I have to decide before I can progress at all is whether to run in true dual mono (all 8 DAC's on a chip running one channel) or two stereo DAC's in parallel. If I am not mistaken, you run two stereo DAC's in parallel?
The disadvantage of running in true dual mono mode is that for DSD, I would need a relay to physically swop over the D1/D2 connections on one of the DAC chips to get DSD in stereo.
The disadvantage of running two two DAC chips in stereo is potentially a lesser degree of channel seperation between left and right then possible with dual mono?
Thoughts and input would be appreciated.
 
The board has been revised an improved a few times over since those comments Alan - so whilst configured for stereo mode as standard, all eight channels are now available. It does need the traces between the D2-D5 input terminals (see earlier photos) to be cut to do eight channel mode - I don't think anybody around here would use it as multichannel so good as currently configured....:)

Ahh thanks for the clarification nothing to do for me then certainly dont need 8 channels at the moment, difficult enough getting 2 to work :D

Alan
 
Before you do order the WaveIO Board, do consider the Amanero Combo384. Some people have recorded that the WaveIO and the Combo384 are the best sounding USB to I2S devices - however, the Amanero has several advantages in that :
It can do DSD over USB - pretty unique!
It can act as an I2C Master for controlling the Sabre Registers so no need for Arduino.
It is cheaper
It is smaller.
However, it does not have in-built I2S isolation (like the WaveIO does) so if you need feature, then seperate add on DIY board is available.
Thanks Themistical that looks a very good board and does 384hz / 32bit:), have you actualy used one of these, or can anyone report on the sound quality compared tp the wave IO

Alan
 
I only have WaveIO, and have to say it's fine, well rather good if you use isolated I2S with a pair of suitable power supplies. I use a fairly standard Flea and home brew TPR, both with extensive rectification / reservoirs.

I do have a little bug when using it with asynchronous USB from my Joggler in that it does not get recognised. I am aware of one other user who had the same problem and we both took instruction on how to hack the Joggler, it failed to work with mine but the other guys worked fine.
I have a work around and have not dug any deeper but believe my problem could well be due to the extensive supply isolation that I use.

In standard for and using S/PDIF it is quite poor but perhaps better than some S/PDIF.

Also if your new to Sabre its worth mentioning that although the Sabre can take S/PDIF directly its not the common consumer level and a level converter needs to be used, all told it is just not worth messing with S/PDIF, just use I2S or the Amanero has DSD capability which I understand is comparable to or better than I2S.

The WaveIO has a threatened daughter upgrade board in the pipeline, its clock is on terminals already and can be fed forward to the Sabre, again something I have yet to try.

Tony
 
Yes I actually use the Amanero Combo384 and it sounds very good. However, it is difficult to compare SQ with the WaveIO as it is difficult to isolate the effect of just that component. I am aware of this link here where the guy did some listening tests and gave his conclusions on his (their) impression of the SQ.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/DAC32/index.html
As Tony has noted, the Amanero does not have an SPDIF output like the WaveIO.
 
Yes I actually use the Amanero Combo384 and it sounds very good. However, it is difficult to compare SQ with the WaveIO as it is difficult to isolate the effect of just that component. I am aware of this link here where the guy did some listening tests and gave his conclusions on his (their) impression of the SQ.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/DAC32/index.html
.

Nice link, interesting

As Tony has noted, the Amanero does not have an SPDIF output like the WaveIO.

If your after the best then you should really forget SPDIF.
 
Thanks Tony & Themystical
I agree Asynk USB is better than SPDIF Coax or optical on my young Dac so thats the way I will be going with this DAC, that said it is nice to have the availability of SPDIF for some second sources so I could get 2 different boards.

Alan
 
Just a note regarding WaveIO
It seems as though a firmware upgrade may become available once the new I2S re timing daughter baord becomes availble.
The firmware would enable DSD replay, the firmware would correct an I2S jitter problem.
 
Well this thread has been dead for a year or so because the project has been on a back burner. Finally got around to it so I thought I would post an update. Basically I have now built both boards and am in the process of testing and tweaking the first one.
Here are some piccies of the second board which I have just built.


More to follow.
 
The goals for this project were two fold. Having been inspired by Tony's (Bemused) dual mono set up when I heard it, I wanted one too. The second was to get up to speed with SMD, after all its the future innit, and to overcome my complete inexperience with this mode of working.
The beauty of a board like this is that it allows you to experiment at a component level at a cost only marginally more than the cost of DAC chip. I paid around £125 for two boards and the retail price of just the ES9018's would be £110 in the UK. The supplier must make a living out of these so he must have been able to source the chips at a favorable price.
To help with component selection, I referred to the Application Note published by ESS which has some very useful information.
Basically they recommend all resistors be metal film or thin film. As this was going to be a SMD project, I opted for 1206 1% Melf resistors by Vishay.
They also recommend that X7R ceramic capacitors are not used in the signal path because of their inherent non-linearity and according to them result in substantial increase in THD and loss of DNR. I used COG/NPO's in the signal path. Diyers are not immune to a bit of "fooism" as there are some people who recommend that even for decoupling/bypass duties one should use COG/NPO's as X7R's smear the sound. Having tried both in this role, to my ears there was no audible difference between the two types. The final boards have a mixture with anything below 1uF being COG/NPO and the 1 and 10uF being X7R's.
The board has locations for ferrite beads in the digital supply lines (and even return for the 1.2V). I have not used these before and have not experimented with their effectiveness or audibility but have installed them. After all as DIYers we are seriously hampered by the lack of measurement gear. It doesn't have to be audible to be technically better.
There is a facility on the board to disable the onboard clock and provide an external clock via pins or ufl connectors or even power the onboard clock from a seperate external 3.3V supply. Quite a few people have reported that Epson SAW clocks are audibly superior to the Crystek ones common fare in most ES9018 implementations. The Crystek clocks have technically some of the best phase noise and jitter figures available but the SAW clocks use a completely different method of generating the clock. This apparently makes an audible difference even though its phase noise/jitter performance is inferior. I have installed a 75MHZ clock readily available from RS with a view to experimenting further with Crystek CCD950 or 575 if I can find a source for them here in the UK. Any clues anybody?
So what about SMD? Well if I can do it, anybody can as I am the worst solderer in the world. Absolutely essential are a good pair of tweezers, a magnifier, 0.3-0.4mm solder wire and flux. Anything missing from this list and it is likely to end up in tears. The benefit of some guidance (as I had from Bemused) goes a long way too. It is definitely worth watching somebody else do it as you can copy their techniques. In fact after doing these two boards (which also have a couple of positions of 0603's) I prefer SMD. I found reworking through hole incredibly difficult and was forever lifting tracks and burning boards. SMD is a lot easier to rework and less danger of lifting tracks in the flimsy boards we have to contend with.
Any views or comments on components or clocks gratefully received.;)
To come, my experiments of different power supply configurations, different op-amp configurations for IV including a CFB and discrete IV versus Opamps.
 
About time.... lol
Very nice write up, a good read.

+1 regarding SMD rework vis through hole rework.
SMD is our friend being cheap and compact and just needs different skills rather than harder skills and as for decoupling we can get them right on the point of interest and kill the crap before its out of the bag.

I'm a little busy right now but will come back and read this whole thread again in more detail.

Bet your pleased with your handy work.
 
Nice construction fella.

The two crucial elements of DAC design are rfi and clocks (and no they should not be treated as separate). The TPA product works well because the board is designed with this in mind and Russ White specced a very high quality clock. Unfortunately that adds cost. It would be interesting to a/b your build against Tony's extrteme TPA build.

My own experience of I/v stages is that none are perfect and achieving the ideal is almost impossible. Complex arrangements (such as the SEN) introduce challenges with power supplies and matching and thermal management. Simpler designs simply don't work great. Given the theoretical difference between current mode and voltage mode I would not sweat about pure current mode as it is difficult to achieve and the marginal increase in distortion in voltage mode is insignificant compared to the distortion your amps and crossovers are going to introduce anyway.

Pay really good attention to power supplies and isolate as much as you can. Tony is probably reaping the rewards of his rather OTT approach to power supplies :) AVCC and clock supplies are the really important supplies to get right.

When I went to a Buffalo-II from an original9008 version, I noticed no improvement until I started tweaking supplies and output. I have contemplated going dual mono but there are probably bigger gains in my set up from other improvements. Moving away from USB and SPDIF to direct I2S is definitely the big way to win, either from a streaming input or a direct transport output.
 
Thanks for the input guys.
Its a definite improvement moving from SPDIF to I2S. I have the Amanero USB to I2S interface and noticed a big improvement from SPDIF. My eventual plan is to integrate an I2S streaming solution so am looking at the capabilities of Wandboard, BBB, RPI and the various other solutions being discussed. I would like I2S and DSD support. I understand that the code for DSD support is already available so it is only a matter of time before it appears in CSOS or LMS (I Hope).
The basic power supplies I have used are these.
http://circulator.bravesites.com/entries/general/gold-reference-regulator
These have a Jung type stage in addition to the basic rectification/filter sections. These are set to 18V DC each for the two 3.3V (AVCC/DVCC) supplies and +/-15V for the IV Stage.
An ALWSR brings the voltage down to approx 6V with the final 3.3V being produced by TPS7A4700 monolithic regulators. The ALWSR's had the lowest noise and output impedance of all the regulators tested by Linear Audio so I can't imagine a cleaner supply. As you can see, I have two Jung type regulators in series. I find the Jung concept very satisfying philosophically. In my simplistic understanding, the output feeds the Opamp which feeds the output. This results is a virtuous circle of performance if you can get it started.
However I also plan to test out the "Mite" for AVCC/DVCC and Salas shunt regulators for the analogue IV stage in due course. Then there is the new King of low noise monolithic regulators with better performance than the TPAS4700 definitely worth a try. Perhaps a separate thread for this?
Any other suggestions as to what other power supplies I should try out?
 
I am a big fan of the Jung reg. The venerable ALWSR is a "good enough" solution in many use cases. I also have recently got great results with Salas LV BIB regs. I like two levels or more of regulation in circuits where it matters. Salas feeding Tridents works really well in my Buffalo.
 
I like your usage of successive stages of PSU regulation. I've done something similar with my Buffalo and SEN supplies. A couple of things that might help.

The ALWSR doesn't like capacitive loads with low ESR so be careful what caps the TPS7A4700 has on its input. I was driving a RPi with an ALWSR but got an improvement when I put a cap multiplier between them. The cap multiplier was happier with the input caps on the RPi's voltage regulator and as it has minimal feedback is unlikely to get unstable. Failing that some sort of added series output resistance might be preferred to a resonant ALWSR.

In general a cap multiplier filter somewhere in each PSU chain has always brought improvements in my system. It is easy to try if you have a few volts spare voltage headroom.

You might want to consider choke regulation feeding a shunt reg (with its complementary fixed current loading of the choke). It adds another layer of filtering to the incoming noise from the mains and may well be better than the Jung style stage for your 18v.

BTW an RPi as an I2S source is very cheap and easy to set up with LMS and PiCorePlayer and in my system substantially out performs SBT feeding a Wavio USB input. The BBB with the audio cape that Russ White of Twisted Pear is working on may well out perform the RPi in due course.

There are also tweaks you can try on the ALWSR's but those are probably left for when everything has settled down a bit.

John
 


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