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Decca carts, what’s the appeal

Frizzy

Frizzy

Liberal anarchist
I’m debating iether getting my age’d vdh grasshopper a new cantilever (my mistake, doh) or trying a different direction. Always been intrigued by Decca’s, I know the design is very different, what’s there good and bad points?
I know it’s a hifi niche, but lovers seem to really love them.
 
Dynamics like no other cartridge. An incredibly direct sound, I guess down to the almost total lack of a cantilever and the high output. Definitely worth an audition.
 
MM output level/phono stage input, but the design theory is a little different. They are their own category really.
 
The down side is reputation for poor tracking... and that when they do mistrack you know about it... plus a degree of arm sensitivity (allegedly). Lore has it that unipivots are good IIRC. Interesting option though!:)
Some of the aftermarket Decca modifiers can fit better styli and lessen some of the mistracking issues but there may be fewer Decca specialists around then there once was. I'm sure someone with up to date info on Decca re-builders will be along shortly!:)
 
Used a London on a Hadcock arm back in the 70's. It was the introduction of this unipivot arm that re-ignited interest in the cartridge. The silicone damping available with this design was supposed to ameliorate the poor tracking. Couldn't say that it did. Was usually distacted by the electric mid range clarity . Dynamics were tremendous, but the whole sound was a bit of an acquired taste. After some years use it went off to the Garrott brothers in Australia for a parasomething stylus re-tip. Epoxied the cartridge body directly to the headshell to eliminate the ludicrously flimsy plastic coupling device. Fast forward 15 years and the LV3/karma was giving a better all round sound but I never experienced that mid range
engagement ever again. Or maybe it was because I'd stopped smoking dope ... Hard to tell now from this distance.
 
There have been two cartridges that just plain hit the spooky end of LP playback for me: 1.) Decca London's -have three and two of 'em still work. Q: who is recommended to work on the one that's knackered ? 2.) The Panasonic Strain Gauge. Took me about 30 years to reassemble the rig I had in the middle 80's -is worth the effort. (And I've heard the Soundsmith SG -worth the money-but I need my work van more.)
 
nws56 said:
Used a London on a Hadcock arm back in the 70's. It was the introduction of this unipivot arm that re-ignited interest in the cartridge. The silicone damping available with this design was supposed to ameliorate the poor tracking. Couldn't say that it did. Was usually distacted by the electric mid range clarity .
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The key problem with them is they are very high compliance in the horizontal plane, very low in the vertical, so thanks to basic physics no arm can be ideal! I’ve always been curious to know how they’d fair on an air-bearing linear tracking arm. Really what the want is the conceptual opposite of a DV505, i.e. they need the light bit in the horizontal plane and all the mass in the vertical! To my mind an air bearing linear arm maybe gets the closest to that.

PS The Decca to own is the vintage SC4E, the bakelite body is a lot better than the thin can of the London. Get it retipped with a nice stylus and it can do things I have heard nowhere else. If you like jazz drumming etc (i.e. real dynamic range, touch, feel) then they are just amazing.
 
wylton said:
So @Tony L where are you with the SC4E, is it just too much faff for you to use one, or is it a future project?
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It is just impractical for me as my TD-124 is just not suitable as it stands. Basically the heavy ferrous iron sub platter sounds *way* better than the lightweight alloy one, a really fundamental difference in solidity, heft and ‘drive’ to my ears (I have both). Annoyingly the Decca is one of very few carts where the magnetic attraction makes the iron platter unusable. I did have the very expensive aftermarket black iron platter, which is very good in concept being a non-ferrous iron, but I had issues with the fit and finish (the idler track was badly finished and noisy) so I eventually ended up returning it. The Decca would not be a great match with the SME either, and I love the classic aesthetics and ergonomics so much I don’t want to change it. The deck just looks great and is a real pleasure to use as-is. As such I’ve decided I’m happy where I am. It is a really good sounding deck as it now stands and the MP-500 is really easy to live with, is perfectly happy in the vintage SME, tracks anything with ease, and has a fairly low running cost. I’m pretty sure I’m done!

PS I have toyed with the idea of getting a vintage Decca FFSS arm and cart on a second armboard and just flinging it and the alloy platter on nw and again, but ultimately I can’t see the point as it is a lot of faff!
 
Tony L said:
It is just impractical for me as my TD-124 is just not suitable as it stands. Basically the heavy ferrous iron sub platter sounds *way* better than the lightweight alloy one, a really fundamental difference in solidity, heft and ‘drive’ to my ears (I have both). Annoyingly the Decca is one of very few carts where the magnetic attraction makes the iron platter unusable. I did have the very expensive aftermarket black iron platter, which is very good in concept being a non-ferrous iron, but I had issues with the fit and finish (the idler track was badly finished and noisy) so I eventually ended up returning it. The Decca would not be a great match with the SME either, and I love the classic aesthetics and ergonomics so much I don’t want to change it. The deck just looks great and is a real pleasure to use as-is. As such I’ve decided I’m happy where I am. It is a really good sounding deck as it now stands and the MP-500 is really easy to live with, is perfectly happy in the vintage SME, tracks anything with ease, and has a fairly low running cost. I’m pretty sure I’m done!
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You probably need an SPU. Just saying.
 
That’s another one I’ve certainly considered, and they are fine with the iron platter (just give them a quarter gram less downforce/measure exactly at playing height), but I’d end up wanting to get a 3012 too and again I’m not sure I can be bothered really! The main thing is, as ever, down to my obsessive nature. I have this 124 sorted now, it just looks and performs like a brand new one. I have addressed absolutely everything as well as it can be done. The 3009 is absolutely mint too, not even the slightest hairline scratch at the arm rest, and they *all* have that. It could take years to find a 3012 in that condition, and I just don’t think I could be arsed! It’s done!
 
I've used a couple of Super Golds (one re-tipped with deccapod) and now a C4E which bests the newer London's by being even more 'Decca'. To echo what Tony said, dynamic expression, touch and feel is what you can expect. A live, visceral experience that plants your backside in a front row seat. Other cartridges may be like sinking into a warm bath, comforting at first but leaving you soporific and ready for bed. A vintage Decca on the other hand - like a cold shower; a bit of a shock at first before leaving you glowing and invigorated.

I use mine in a mere Sumiko MMT premier arm with a touch of fluid damping employed at 2g. I have to say that I've never experienced any of the horror stories that get bandied around. Tracking has never been an issue, unless you're playing heavily warped discs, loading is just fine at 47k and re-tipping options are straight forward.
 
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Tony L said:
That’s another one I’ve certainly considered, and they are fine with the iron platter (just give them a quarter gram less downforce/measure exactly at playing height), but I’d end up wanting to get a 3012 too and again I’m not sure I can be bothered really! The main thing is, as ever, down to my obsessive nature. I have this 124 sorted now, it just looks and performs like a brand new one. I have addressed absolutely everything as well as it can be done. The 3009 is absolutely mint too, not even the slightest hairline scratch at the arm rest, and they *all* have that. It could take years to find a 3012 in that condition, and I just don’t think I could be arsed! It’s done!
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Yebbut I think it might actually be ILLEGAL to run an idler and not try an SPU at least once.

I use my lowly SPU #1 E in a 9" Jelco arm and it's pretty great, and not just with jazz. Now I have the Lenco GL75 set up with it I'm in a very happy place with vinyl. I ran a 401 in a massive oak plinth for a while with a 3009 and heavy counterweight, and that was the best vinyl front end I've ever used (sadly, the deck wasn't mine, I was looking after it for a friend while he was moving), but what I have is close enough. A 3012 would be lovely, but it's not essential. Mind you, the heavy counterweight costs an absurd amount of money nowadays.

Years ago I heard a demo of Westminster Royals. Front end was some massive turntable, I think a Brinkmann, with a Decca London, and some boutique valve amp that cost more than my house. It was pretty extraordinary, but very full on.
 
audiopile said:
There have been two cartridges that just plain hit the spooky end of LP playback for me: 1.) Decca London's -have three and two of 'em still work. Q: who is recommended to work on the one that's knackered ? 2.) The Panasonic Strain Gauge. Took me about 30 years to reassemble the rig I had in the middle 80's -is worth the effort. (And I've heard the Soundsmith SG -worth the money-but I need my work van more.)
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John Wright is your man for repairs-

https://www.yell.com/biz/j-wright-audio-services-bridgnorth-1620424/
 
Tony L said:
Really what the want is the conceptual opposite of a DV505, i.e. they need the light bit in the horizontal plane and all the mass in the vertical!
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That's interesting: some people use a DV507 with a Decca to great effect. I'd been toying with one for that very reason.
 
Theo said:
That's interesting: some people use a DV507 with a Decca to great effect. I'd been toying with one for that very reason.
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That surprises me as the mass is in exactly the wrong plane for a Decca! Great arm though.
 
nws56 said:
Or maybe it was because I'd stopped smoking dope ... Hard to tell now from this distance.
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Ah, those rose-tinted memories of hallucinogenic music; vague memories but it was a bit hazy at the time ! :)

I've had two Decca arms; the first, I think, must have been the FFSS but the later one was an International (which my bro.-in-law still has). It was in this that my Decca (C4E, London?????) was mounted, and the memory of its visceral sound remains from 1974/5. I, like others, hanker after trying the Decca cart. thing again, in the context of a much better system than yesteryear.

As Tony says, the C4E (= SC4E ?) does have a rep., but maybe others, more modern ones, come close? John Wright, mentioned above, is the acknowledged expert refurbisher of Deccas; he must be getting on now, though.
 
Mike Reed said:
As Tony says, the C4E (= SC4E ?) does have a rep., but maybe others, more modern ones, come close? John Wright, mentioned above, is the acknowledged expert refurbisher of Deccas; he must be getting on now, though.
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The 'S' stands for special C4E - tightly matched coil output etc. They're like Unicorn poop these days tho.
John Wright offers extended line contact or para-trace styli upgrades for these carts. The latter taking them into next level from what I've read.
 
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