DAC yes/no

[naka]

hi guys what's your take on DACS, im wondering if there is a major sound improvement ,im currently running a RP 10 TT,Aethos Amp, Apollo R cd, Node for streaming, Acoustic Energy 509 speakers, i will be looking to demo chord Qtest soon, but interested in anyones advice regards

The answer is: yes! Your system can take advantage of a better dac. The Rega Saturn Mk3 can be interesting if you play CDs like I do.
I went from the Qutest to the Denafrips Pontus II and couldn’t be more happy. It allows a more natural, engaging and mature sound.
My advice is: if you can, try in your room before buying any dac.

 

[Phyztech]

Hmm, are you speaking from experience or surmising on price? In the context of a system with Chord amp and German Physiks speakers there is ime little difference in sound quality between Qutest and TT2 although the TT2 does add preamp and headphone amp capabilities. In practice, when, I compared the two, I preferred one on some tracks and the other on other tracks - but, it was a very small margin. Both DACs can be improved by the addition of an m scaler but only when everything else is fully optimised and there are funds left over. Even then what is one persons significant improvement is inaudible to another.

Actually when I actively evaluated dacs for myself I preferred SW1X 3 level tube dac, but what you’re telling is very strange to me. In my experience when digital is not heard with 3x price difference it’s a sign that something in the mains (or speaker positioning) is not sorted and prevents that.

 

[camverton]

Chord dacs are overpriced. Get a Topping DX3Pro+ for £200 instead, then give it a 15V PSU if you believe in such things. I've had a lot of dacs, including the one in the Node 2i. That one's the worst but still not much different from the best.

I agree that Chord DACs are expensive, particularly as you go up the range. Unfortunately build quality, particularly when made in Kent, costs. The Chord DACs are also different in the way they work and the research has to be paid for; obviously only worthwhile if one can hear the effect of that different approach. I do have a Topping DAC, which I use as a USB to optical, but as a DAC it is decent and compares favourably with much more expensive DACs of a similar type. Topping is made in China which makes it cheaper although some prefer to pay more to, at least partially, avoid made in China.

 

[Phyztech]

I've had a lot of dacs, including the one in the Node 2i. That one's the worst but still not much different from the best.

And what was the best?

 

[camverton]

Actually when I actively evaluated dacs for myself I preferred SW1X 3 level tube dac, but what you’re telling is very strange to me. In my experience when digital is not heard with 3x price difference it’s a sign that something in the mains is not sorted and prevents that.

Really! The law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty quickly and as I pointed out comparing the Qutest and TT2 is not like for like as one has extra features although the TT2 iirc has twice the taps.

Of course, some more expensive items can yield higher, worthwhile, quality but ime higher price can often be as much about appealing to a particular type of buyer, intent on having “the best” as offering genuine improvements. As Henry Ford said, big cars big profits, small cars small profits; something similar might be said to apply to hifi.

 

[Phyztech]

Really! The law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty quickly and as I pointed out comparing the Qutest

For me, “source first” (or second, after mains) works pretty well. You propose 1k dac for >3k amp in the context of a top tt, I was quite happy with 6k dac and 2k amp and definitely 10k+ dacs offer even more

 

[camverton]

For me, “source first” (or second, after mains) works pretty well. You propose 1k dac for >3k amp in the context of a top tt, I was quite happy with 6k dac and 2k amp and definitely 10k+ dacs offer even more

Thank you for quoting my post but by cutting it mid sentence you miss the point I was making about cost of added features. As for source first, that Linn chap has a lot to answer for! It is surely a case of getting a system in perspective; no amount of over spending on a DAC will negate the effect of a lesser speaker with, for example, an edgy sounding tweeter.

 

[Phyztech]

no amount of over spending on a DAC will negate the effect of a lesser speaker with, for example, an edgy sounding tweeter.

There’s simply no such thing as non-appropriate tweeter or woofer these days, it’s all manageable upstream (also with a dac)

 

[camverton]

There’s simply no such thing as non-appropriate tweeter or woofer these days, it’s all manageable upstream (also with a dac)

Are you pulling my leg? If not then I’ll just have to respectfully disagree. Speakers and the way they interact with a room make or break a system, other components might be thought of as a support act. These days, ime, DACs etc are a done deal albeit with a role in refining the sound. You’ll be telling me next that expensive cables make a difference because they cost a lot of money, (albeit a few specialist ones can make a small difference). All the best but our experiences are miles apart.

 

[rough edges]

I was using a Rega Apollo (2018) into a Schiit Gungnit multibit DAC, using the spdif connection. Everything sounded great, and the Schiit DAC made a substantial improvement in sound quality over the bare Apollo.
Then I installed a new transport in my Rega Saturn-R, and substituted it for the Apollo. The sound was even better than with the Apollo, even though the two cd players use the transport. I was surprised by that, since I thought the digital streams would be identical. I chalked it up to the Saturn-R having a better power supply.
The next thing I tried, was using the Saturn-R as a cd player instead of a transport, and the sound improved again. This time though, the change to the sound was that it became more musical. It sounded like the musicians were playing more together, and there was a better sense of the value of each musician's contribution to the whole. The interactions between the various musicians also made much more musical sense, and were much easier to hear. This was easily heard with small jazz ensembles, or chamber music.
My better half was out running errands when I made the change to using the analogue outs on the Saturn-R. She hadn't been in the house for more than ten minutes, when she asked me why the music sounded so much better. She even said "more musical". Go figure...
So. while the Rega cd players into the Schiit DAC were very good in a more "hi-fi" way, the bare Saturn-R ended up being the best overall, especially musically.
I just sold the Schiit DAC to a fellow in Utah, and I'm now running a Saturn Mk3 in my music room, and a Saturn-R in the second system.
I guess I'm one of those who prefers the sound from a cd player over a transport and DAC. I think jitter has something to do with it...

 

[Amber Audio]

Are you pulling my leg? If not then I’ll just have to respectfully disagree. Speakers and the way they interact with a room make or break a system, other components might be thought of as a support act. These days, ime, DACs etc are a done deal albeit with a role in refining the sound. You’ll be telling me next that expensive cables make a difference because they cost a lot of money, (albeit a few specialist ones can make a small difference). All the best but our experiences are miles apart.

Guessing he’s referring to a DSP/EQ-PEQ room correction type system at the DAC/Amp. IME RC can work really well but I still prefer to start with a speaker/room combo that already works well and sounds decent.

As far as the OP query, a Rega DAC-R would be worth trying, fairly common on the used market and easy to move on if it doesn’t please. I found it made a surprising improvement to a SBT and Pioneer DVD acting as transport. Loads of choice out there, the older Wolfson based DACs still do the job imho, like Cambridge DacMagic, of the various newer models I’ve tried I enjoyed the Matrix Sabre Pro a lot more than the Topping/SMSL/Gustard alternatives.

 

[Phyztech]

I guess I'm one of those who prefers the sound from a cd player over a transport and DAC. I think jitter has something to do with it...

Your example perfectly illustrates that not every cd-player at all is good like a transport (in fact, it’s quite rare thing). Dedicated transport + dac combo has greater potential overall but it’s not so easy to extract (cables and power supplies start to be massively important).

 

[Phyztech]

I still prefer to start with a speaker/room combo that already works well and sounds decent.

But it’s not even a question, does anybody want to ruin the sound with bad speakers/room, I guess no…

 

[Alex S]

I agree that Chord DACs are expensive, particularly as you go up the range. Unfortunately build quality, particularly when made in Kent, costs. The Chord DACs are also different in the way they work and the research has to be paid for; obviously only worthwhile if one can hear the effect of that different approach. I do have a Topping DAC, which I use as a USB to optical, but as a DAC it is decent and compares favourably with much more expensive DACs of a similar type. Topping is made in China which makes it cheaper although some prefer to pay more to, at least partially, avoid made in China.

There is that, but you’re also paying for marketing, and whatever Chord can get away with. The build quality is no better than Eversolo, say, and the UI is pathetic. You didn’t type your reply on a phone or computer did you? If yes, where was it made?

And what was the best?

Not nearly expensive enough to be worth mentioning.

 

[rough edges]

Your example perfectly illustrates that not every cd-player at all is good like a transport (in fact, it’s quite rare thing). Dedicated transport + dac combo has greater potential overall but it’s not so easy to extract (cables and power supplies start to be massively important).

All I can do is report things as I heard them, using the equipment I had in hand. I certainly don't deny that a dedicated transport and DAC can sound as good as, or even better than, a standalone cd player. I do prefer the aesthetics of a single box solution, though, and the two Saturns I have certainly sound good enough for me.
Maybe I just prefer the Wolfson DAC implementation in the Regas. Horses for courses and all that...

 

[Alex S]

Maybe the Saturn, like all good CD players, has a good dac implementation, a solid output stage, low signal paths and dispenses with extra boxes and cabling. My Densen sounded better on its own, any dac making it sound like a worse version of itself (and that has proper BNC connection, unlike most), my Technics sounds better on its own, although the Denon sounds better with an off board dac but makes a good transport.

 

[camverton]

There is that, but you’re also paying for marketing, and whatever Chord can get away with. The build quality is no better than Eversolo, say, and the UI is pathetic. You didn’t type your reply on a phone or computer did you? If yes, where was it made?


Not nearly expensive enough to be worth mentioning.

Not seen an Eversolo so can’t compare. The build quality of my little Topping DAC is perfectly serviceable but not a patch on Chord. The Chord UI is a question of taste and preference unless you’re defining what you don’t like as pathetic! I said ”some prefer to pay more to, at least partially, avoid made in China”, personally I’m more pragmatic and realise that it’s difficult to avoid China particularly if you consider where the internal components are made.

In the last analysis it’s what the thing sounds like to an individuals own ears, and those ears are somewhat variable. To my ears my Chord DACs sounded better than my Topping DAC. A small but significant difference in that with Chord I wasn’t distracted from enjoying the music, with Topping, Benchmark, Beresford, Hegel etc I was distracted from the music by the feeling that something wasn’t quite right with the sound. For my ears that was worth paying the extra, for someone else’s ears maybe not and the likes of Topping is more than adequate at a much lower price. Oh, and it looks boringly normal which is doubtless better for many folk!

 

[Fretbuzz]

Cost is so relative. Say £1k on a used Chord DAC that keeps its value well and has good UK-based customer support makes more sense to me than (say) £500 on a Chinese one that's never going to keep value so well, and potentially end up a door stop is customer support is ever needed in the event of an issue.

 

[Fretbuzz]

Not seen an Eversolo so can’t compare. The build quality of my little Topping DAC is perfectly serviceable but not a patch on Chord. The Chord UI is a question of taste and preference unless you’re defining what you don’t like as pathetic! I said ”some prefer to pay more to, at least partially, avoid made in China”, personally I’m more pragmatic and realise that it’s difficult to avoid China particularly if you consider where the internal components are made.

In the last analysis it’s what the thing sounds like to an individuals own ears, and those ears are somewhat variable. To my ears my Chord DACs sounded better than my Topping DAC. A small but significant difference in that with Chord I wasn’t distracted from enjoying the music, with Topping, Benchmark, Beresford, Hegel etc I was distracted from the music by the feeling that something wasn’t quite right with the sound. For my ears that was worth paying the extra, for someone else’s ears maybe not and the likes of Topping is more than adequate at a much lower price. Oh, and it looks boringly normal which is doubtless better for many folk!

Couldn't agree with this more. The only other DAC I've had that competed with the Chord ones in terms of not 'not sounding quite right' was an Audio Note one. All others didn't have they in the long term. Odd in that Chord and AN are such different designs and approaches, but both get something fundamentally right IME.

 

[Fourlegs]

Unison Research Simply Italy amp, ATC and PMC speakers, various cd-transports as main source. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a worthwhile little dac, but just in a context of the system discussed I would say hugo tt2 and similar stuff should be considered.

These things are nearly always in the eyes (ears) of the beholder. I personally prefer the sound of the Qutest with a half decent power supply over the TT2. Indeed I sold my TT2 to get a Qutest instead. The only downside for me with the Qutest is that it is a fixed output albeit with choices of different fixed outputs. In the end I realised I could sell the Qutest and preamp and get a second hand Dave for the same price (the preamp I had was admittedly a very nice one).