Fretbuzz
pfm Member
Remembered coming across this before getting my first Croft:
Reflecting back on Stereophile’s Croft Integrated review – Audioflair
Reflecting back on Stereophile’s Croft Integrated review – Audioflair
Croft Line Integrated
- Thread starter Shane2468
- Start date
tuga
Legal Alien
It looks no more than a fanboy-dealer rant... Hardly a rebutal in any shape or form.
sideshowbob
Champagne fascia aficionado
I like Croft amps a lot but it's true, they're very odd and measure badly. I see no problem bearing that in mind/being aware of it. In certain circumstances it will matter, audibly.
Measurements tell about electrical performance/compatibility, they are factual.
Raving tells about personal preference, it's a matter of personal opinion.
If you look at the frequency response plot you will see that when the amplifier is driving a speaker load the response is all over the place (black trace).
Different speakers will produce a different load, to the all-over-the-place will vary from speaker to speaker.
As you can see, the combined response of the amplifier/speaker closely mimics the speaker load – peaks and dips at the exact same frequencies (below).
I couldn't give a **** about a ruler-flat frequency response because that tells you bugger all about how a component reproduces MUSIC.
FWIW, I auditioned the Croft Micro 25/7 pre/power amp combo and really liked how they sounded with my LS3/5As - amazing transparency and almost certainly better than anything else for around the same price.
If measurements are important to you then perhaps consider the 7R power amp which has a better regulated power supply (interestingly, some Croft users prefer the base model).
beammeup
pfm Member
I have the base model Croft 25/7 - I just can't beat that amp for the price (or any price I guess). I am seriously considering getting a remote control added for convenience.
The Croft looks rather plain Jane - but what do you want the looks or the sound?
Right now my focus is on the digital transport ... more on that later.
Oh and the mention of Audioflair earlier - this is where I sought my advice an ultimately purchased the Croft from - Adrian is really helpful from that perspective.
The Croft looks rather plain Jane - but what do you want the looks or the sound?
Right now my focus is on the digital transport ... more on that later.
Oh and the mention of Audioflair earlier - this is where I sought my advice an ultimately purchased the Croft from - Adrian is really helpful from that perspective.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Another thumbs up for Audioflair. When I had a Croft preamp modified Adrian's charges were extremely reasonable and service was very friendly and relaxed - he was very happy to chat and show me gear for as long as I liked.
Amber Audio
This is the Day
+1 Adrian helped me out above and beyond with a Croft Pre I bought used from one of his previous customers. I was getting interference one weekend - turned out a neighbour was the source, he helped me pin it down.
ArtK
Lovin’ life!
I have no idea how that’s a reply to me. I think we all know that listening is about personal preference. I simply stated who did what at Stereophile as it relates to the amp.Measurements tell about electrical performance/compatibility, they are factual.
Raving tells about personal preference, it's a matter of personal opinion.
If you look at the frequency response plot you will see that when the amplifier is driving a speaker load the response is all over the place (black trace).
Different speakers will produce a different load, to the all-over-the-place will vary from speaker to speaker.
As you can see, the combined response of the amplifier/speaker closely mimics the speaker load – peaks and dips at the exact same frequencies (below).
paulfromcamden
Baffled
tuga
Legal Alien
Of course it does. Maybe not to you and many others but it tells about the balance between different frequencies/notes.
Would you buy a TV set which reproduced the sky with a green colour cast and yellow-tinted pure whites?
I know accuracy is easier to see than to hear and some degree of deviation from flat/accurate is to be expected but with the Croft, a Prima Luna or a Leben that deviation can be acceptable to massive depending the speakers they’re connected to.
I understand that massive deviation is likely to please some people, to sound “musical” to them, but I find it useful to warn that this may be the case.
no matter your preference the Croft will be affected by the load it’s driving and it will vary a lot more than it does with most amplifiers.
Measurements tell about electrical performance/compatibility, they are factual.
Raving tells about personal preference, it's a matter of personal opinion.
If you look at the frequency response plot you will see that when the amplifier is driving a speaker load the response is all over the place (black trace).
Different speakers will produce a different load, to the all-over-the-place will vary from speaker to speaker.
But a loudspeaker is not a constant load. It is varying all the time, anywhere from 2ohms to 60 ohms in some cases, depending on the frequency and the speaker. The variance in the audio range above is around +/-1dB, volume controls vary up to +/- 2dB, and seeing as the human hearing can just about detect 1dB, you will probably never hear or notice this variance. It just goes to prove that although measurements are valid, they need to be put into prospective.
Music and sounds - two very different things. Use the ear-brain to measure the former, lab equipment the latter.
Music is an event in time, so your analogy with TV image quality is irrelevant.
tuga
Legal Alien
It is precisely the variable load across the audio band that causes issues with amplifiers like the Croft or with SETs.
Studies show that we are able to hear variations as low as 0.2dB depending on the frequency in question and possibly the listener’s training/capabilities. A 2dB difference is more noticeable than a change of cables.
tuga
Legal Alien
That’s a simplistic way to look at it, but whatever rocks your boat.
And what issues are those?
Whatever studies show, it is recognised in the audio industry that the smallest perceived change people can hear is 1dB. The standard frequency range for audio is 20-20kHz +/-3dB. A man of approximately 50-60 years old will not be able to hear above 12KHz-13KHz. As I said previously, Prospective!
tuga
Legal Alien
+/~ 3dB was the goal for speakers at the end of the last century.
I’ve written about the issues of amps having high output impedance earlier in the thread.
What was last century is still perfectly relevant today. Don't forget with the exception of digital, audio was all done and dusted in the 1920s/1930s. If you don't believe this just go to the Munich Show and hear one of the 1930s Western Electric Speaker Systems.
The alternative to high output impedance is a lot of negative feedback. Audio like a lot of things in life is all about compromise, and to get the best sound you have to minimise the compromises. Many think, including the likes of Art Dudley, Stephen Mejias and Sam Tellig suggest that a lack of feedback is preferable to a lot of feedback, hence their comments about how much they liked the sound of the Croft. At the end of the day it will be up to the buyers of equipment to decide for themselves which sound they prefer, and not the preaching from religious measurement zealots who just quote measurement figures. Measurements are not music. Music is emotion and how we feel during its replay. No measurements can tell us that.