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Creek 3040/3140 Tuner 150mV & 550mV Outputs?

M

Minstrel SE

These go to eleven
Hi

I have been setting up my Creek 3040 and 3140 tuners again. Lovely sound but I find it odd the way they have configured the two outputs

The low level 150mV output has Phono connections.

The high level 550mV output is a DIN socket connector.

I would have thought it should be the other way around with the high level output on the later style phono sockets. I thought Din was optimized at around 100mV?

I know the matching creek amp is more sensitive to 150mV but there is certainly not enough gain at 150mv for a Marantz amplifier for example. Even Creek moved away from DIN as my Creek 4040/4140 amplifiers are phono input

I have ordered cheap tester din to phono cable before I buy a neutrik van damme one. I have read that din is better than phono in some respects but surely not as a conversion adapter lead.

You dont often get two level outputs so can any hi fi experts throw more light on this please? Cheers.
 
If the DIN output follows the DIN standard, rather than just using a DIN connector, then the output isn't a voltage output at all, it's a current output. The DIN source has a high output impedance, a DIN input has a low input impedance, so the voltage is pretty meaningless, it's a current drive. However, it's almost always derived from a voltage source rather than a current source, so the effect is to roll-off the HF if high capacitance (or long lengths of almost any capacitance) cables are used.

If you put a true DIN output into a normal voltage input, it will work fine, but the cable length has to be kept short, I would not go over 1m unless the cable is of very low capacitance.

S.
 
sergeauckland said:
If the DIN output follows the DIN standard, rather than just using a DIN connector, then the output isn't a voltage output at all, it's a current output. The DIN source has a high output impedance, a DIN input has a low input impedance, so the voltage is pretty meaningless, it's a current drive. However, it's almost always derived from a voltage source rather than a current source, so the effect is to roll-off the HF if high capacitance (or long lengths of almost any capacitance) cables are used.

If you put a true DIN output into a normal voltage input, it will work fine, but the cable length has to be kept short, I would not go over 1m unless the cable is of very low capacitance.

S.
Click to expand...

Sounds very intelligent all of that but eh? :) No I think I understand thanks. Its just that 150mV may work with creek amps of the time but seems a very low level for use with other modern amplifiers.
 
It's hard to get one's head round DIN standards because we've been conditioned to think about sensitivities in terms of volts. DIN changed that to current, but the practical implementation was still based on voltage, probably because the designers couldn't get their heads round it either!

I wouldn't worry about it, just use whichever output works best. Just remember that if you use the DIN output, keep the cables short unless you know the circuit details of how the DIN output has been implemented.

S.
 
Armstrong 600 tuners also feature two output levels, both on the same 5-DIN socket. The tuner input on the matching amplifier has a sensitivity of 120mV for full output, overload at 3V, impedance 68k. The original DIN standard was for valves (which are current sources)...

1. The conventional output pins (3 and 5) are fed via 68k resistors, the total impedance is therefore about 135k ohms (out plus in). A very small current (a few microamps) is the result, but the teensy current produces respectable voltage (about 0.4V) when presented across the 68k input impedance of the amplifier. This is a current source, high output impedance. The following input impedance is largely irrelevant to the source, even if connected dead short to ground it still sees 68k. If the amplifier could operate satisfactorily from a few microvolts then 1 ohm would do, but it can't so it matches the source impedance for maximum power transfer (50% of very little) and a decent amount of voltage to work with (again, 50%).

2. The other pins 1 and 4, normally unused in 5-DIN sources, carries the unfettered nominal 775mV of the driver transistors and is intended to feed a 600 ohm line (for stupidly long interconnects - maybe hundreds of feet, industrial or electrically noisy environments, or less sensitive amplifiers). This is a voltage source, low output impedance. It will drive anything of at least 600 ohms (a figure originally derived from telegraph/telephone wires), which should include even most modern amplifiers, and the higher the load impedance the better as it will only get an easier time as the required current decreases. Do not short this output, blown transistors in the tuner might be the result.
 
Thanks guys. Very interesting. I ordered some cheap tester leads before but had a problem with people sending me pins 1 and 4 wired rather then 3 and 5.

Ive ordered a cheap throwaway all pins wired to 4 phono plugs this time to be sure.

When Im happy I will order a pin 3 and 5 made up with Neutrik plugs and a better cable. I will keep the cables as short as possible. I have so much stuff hoarded in here and must get it all wired up properly.
 
I currently own two 3140's,one has just been put back into my system after my FM 4 bit the dust!! I have always preferred the sonics of the din output,even when the levels are matched,using a Mayware adaptor also allows you to easily evaluate the differences with cables too!!!
 
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