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Coronavirus - the new strain II

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Woodface said:
Oh dear, all medics look at the likely outcomes before they treat, key tenet is ‘do no harm’, sometimes non intervention provides a better outcome. Unpalatable I know but these are choices which have to be made in medicine; I have had many a conversation on this topic with a Dr pal of mine & it has challenged & changed my outlook.
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I have a couple of doctor friends and my daughters a student doctor.... It changes my views not one jot.

The choice of terms such as "provides a better outcome" as a euphemism for "they die quick and it frees up resources" disgusts me.

As was pointed out on "The Last Leg" by Adam Hill just last night "mainly the elderly and those with pre existing conditions" sounds very different when put as "your Dad, who is 68 and lives a very active life but has a touch of bronchitis" and "Josh Widecombe, sat right there, who is in his thirties but has asthma".

I'm 55 and have a lifelong COPD issue which now has got to the point where if I'm out on my push bike and come against a steep hill I'll often get off and push as the getting THAT out of breath isn't worth it... I guess I'm getting on a bit and that's a pukka pre existing condition there eh?

A very good mate of mine took early retirement 6 months back to look after his elderly and very frail parents who are in their 80's.... In an average week he's at the hospital with one or the other of them, for tests or follow up's to other treatments, about twice a week... I guess they're almost certainly goners if the virus spreads as far and wide as expected...

Real people, real situations....
 
I saw somebody today in the supermarket at the checkout with six 9-packs of toilet rolls. That’s 54 rolls! He purchased nothing else apart from the toilet rolls. I was pretty pissed off with him but decided to keep quiet about it.
 
slavedata said:
What I fail to understand is the burning need to have 24 toilet rolls. Is it some sort of security blanket like a cuddly cloth?
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When people feel they have a government not handling a crisis well they panic buy .....and this government are not handling this well. They need to be far more transparent and verbose about what is happening, what they are doing etc. They won't be of course and the chaos will simply continue!
 
Seanm said:
This is bollocks. I haven't been scaremongering, I've pointed to the government's apparent over-reliance on behavioural science and the limitations of that science. I've asked why their actions have run contrary to those of every other country as well as the advice of the WHO. Despite your initial panicking you're now telling us to trust the good Dr Halpern. No, I don't trust these people. I trust real scientists and the WHO.

This isn't just about whether we, individually, take the government's advice or not. Institutions and community groups look to the government. Those who are involved with these organisations have to decide whether or not to push them to be more cautious. I note that The Daily Mail, for one, has decided not to trust the government's advice for their own staff, while continuing to push it on their readers, who have most to lose from trusting them. I hope your vulnerable loved ones have better sense.
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I feel bit sorry for you. I think you are the most bitter person on PF. Kind of horrible and nasty at the same time.

Worst of all, I don't think you really care about anybody or anything else other than your political dogma.

Perhaps the opportunity offered by this unprecedented crisis is the way in for people on the hard left such as yourself to seize power or come riding to the rescue as the population re-appraises its social values and way of life.

ray
 
NeilR said:
I saw somebody today in the supermarket at the checkout with six 9-packs of toilet rolls. That’s 54 rolls! He purchased nothing else apart from the toilet rolls. I was pretty pissed off with him but decided to keep quiet about it.
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You should have loudly announced him as the neighbourhood’s biggest defecator.
 
tiggers said:
When people feel they have a government not handling a crisis well they panic buy .....and this government are not handling this well. They need to be far more transparent and verbose about what is happening, what they are doing etc. They won't be of course and the chaos will simply continue!
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The polls I saw today were favourable for BJ and his chums.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
I have a couple of doctor friends and my daughters a student doctor.... It changes my views not one jot.

The choice of terms such as "provides a better outcome" as a euphemism for "they die quick and it frees up resources" disgusts me.

As was pointed out on "The Last Leg" by Adam Hill just last night "mainly the elderly and those with pre existing conditions" sounds very different when put as "your Dad, who is 68 and lives a very active life but has a touch of bronchitis" and "Josh Widecombe, sat right there, who is in his thirties but has asthma".
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You are perfectly entitled to your views & it is always different when relatives are involved but that doesn’t change the realities of the outcome. Emotion alone will never be enough. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the illness.

As it happens my father has very poor lung function & I have asthma so I am not immune from this.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
I have a couple of doctor friends and my daughters a student doctor.... It changes my views not one jot.

The choice of terms such as "provides a better outcome" as a euphemism for "they die quick and it frees up resources" disgusts me.

As was pointed out on "The Last Leg" by Adam Hill just last night "mainly the elderly and those with pre existing conditions" sounds very different when put as "your Dad, who is 68 and lives a very active life but has a touch of bronchitis" and "Josh Widecombe, sat right there, who is in his thirties but has asthma".
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And we might as well wash disabled newborns down the sluice while we're at it!

There are going to have to be horrible choices made soon enough but we're not there yet - I suppose the priority will be to save the most lives and that'll be made considerably worse by the current state of the nhs, and the fascist 'survival of the fittest' policy being driven by the Government. By the way I never use the F word lightly.
 
Tony L said:
How so? Bit of a difference between a virus you can easily pickup from merely touching a handrail or doorknob, and one that requires having unprotected sex with strangers or tainted blood-transfusions to pass.
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I meant in terms of the scale of the alarm it has caused in the populace rather than in the manner of transmission.

I thought that was obvious from my post using words like "culture' and 'atmosphere'.
 
vuk said:
@Joe P is gonna love this -- from the khan academy:

"So were they ever alive? Most biologists say no. Viruses are not made out of cells, they can't keep themselves in a stable state, they don't grow, and they can't make their own energy. Even though they definitely replicate and adapt to their environment, viruses are more like androids than real living organisms."

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/mcat/cells/viruses/a/are-viruses-dead-or-alive
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And you CANNOT make energy!!!!!!!
 
Joe P said:
Vuk,

Don’t know where to start there — well, apart from saying that the Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaan! Academy is being sloppy — but if the analogy is with robots and computing, a virus is essentially a bit of code that overwrites some of the machine’s software to make and spread more copies of itself.

A virus is just some DNA or RNA in a protein shell and is quite useless without a functioning host — any living thing from single celled life such as bacteria to cells found in multicellular organisms from aardvarks and antelopes to lettuce and zebras.

Joe
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And don’t forget a lipid envelope in some.
 
thebigfredc said:
I meant in terms of the scale of the alarm it has caused in the populace rather than in the manner of transmission.

I thought that was obvious from my post using words like "culture' and 'atmosphere'.
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The alarm is relative to the risk. The risk here, especially for many members of this particular site, is very real/high indeed. I have no idea why you seek to trivialise it.
 
clivem2 said:
They could be healthier or more likely they are doing more testing and have many more mild cases in their numbers.
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The government admitted on Thursday that there were probably at 5 to 10000 people out there with the virus, which would therefore make the mortality rate much lower.
 
This is a great example of capitalism being the most evil concept in existence... If when the presence and danger of this virus had become obvious all international travel had been shut down then it could have been contained to Wuhan... but no no we can't possibly allow the risk of millions of people dying to threaten profits.... the CEO has to travel to Shanghai to sign off on that new £30M deal and we can't stop that for something as paltry as the risk of him bringing the virus back to Birmingham/London/New York...
 
Arkless Electronics said:
This is a great example of capitalism being the most evil concept in existence... If when the presence and danger of this virus had become obvious all international travel had been shut down then it could have been contained to Wuhan... but no no we can't possibly allow the risk of millions of people dying to threaten profits.... the CEO has to travel to Shanghai to sign off on that new £30M deal and we can't stop that for something as paltry as the risk of him bringing the virus back to Birmingham/London/New York...
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It was already too late by the time China owned up, cloud cuckoo land if you think you'd have confined this to China.
 
Tony L said:
The alarm is relative to the risk. The risk here, especially for many members of this particular site, is very real/high indeed. I have no idea why you seek to trivialise it.
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I include my original post here which shows how I in no way seemed to trivialise it:

‘My mind was taken to the more recent past (at least for the richer countries) - the atmosphere and culture that pervaded around the AIDS virus.’

My post was in response to someone saying we hadn’t seen the like for three hundred years.
 
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