advertisement


Computer aided turntable / cartridge setup?

InSides

dŵr
So I came across a video from The Absolute Sound titled "a review of the AnalogMagik V2" (*). I will not go in depth on the video save to mention that in my opinion it should have been named "a solely subjective experience" since it contained no effort to explain how the software works nor showed it in operation.

(*) For those that do not know what it is, AnalogMagik is a software that uses a computer + audio interface + their own test records to produce visually helpful measurements of the correctness of cartridge / turntable setup.

That aside though, it made me ponder about two things, possibly unrelated:
  1. How accurate can any measurement approach be, including this one, if they base their reference on the test records they produce? Wouldn't it be heavily dependent on the correctness of the test records? As I see it, it is a closed system that cannot be verified externally - even the people in the video state that they used it to "check" their previous work and found it, for the lack of a better word, "lacking".

    The Fozgometer relies on the Analogue Productions Test LP, which you can use without the Fozgometer. The Puffin (Parks Audio) can use any of the popular test records, including the Analogue Productions one, the Ortofon one, Vinyl Check by Tacet etc.

  2. Does anyone here use a computer to aid their turntable / cartridge setup?

    I would be very curious to learn what software and test records, and the procedures you take? I have used Audacity to (1) check resonance peaks, (2) determine proper azimuth and (3) establish correct speed, as well as REW to plot cartridge frequency graphs.

    But the software above states that they can also help with VTA and additional parameters, so there must be ways to use standard test records I have not thought of.
 
cool question.. for some years now i have used the Feickert Adjust+ SW, now no longer available, and this also uses an LP to work alongside the SW, but without as many parameters as Analog magic, and at significantly less cost. I have looked at analog magic and it looks very good indeed, although how much their accuracy translates to improved sound, i am unsure...but I am currently very tempted to buy it, as it hits nearly all of my personal measurement buttons and appeals to my OCD - now that i know these tools exist, how can i ever be satisfied with my cartidge setup and just listen happily.......?
 
btw - just checked your profile and was massively impressed with your TT & Arm - I have been building my own arm, using 3d prints, ad its now in v4 and sounding much better than my SMEV, but your effort is seriously beautiful and deserves real credit - beautiful job!
 
btw - just checked your profile and was massively impressed with your TT & Arm - I have been building my own arm, using 3d prints, ad its now in v4 and sounding much better than my SMEV, but your effort is seriously beautiful and deserves real credit - beautiful job!

Thank you for the praise - arms are a very tricky thing to build (to have them sound right), which is why I now default to a trio of SME 3012 (albeit slightly modified in line with my requirements). I would appreciate seeing what you've done. :)

On the topic at hand, I would love for us here to share experiences and thoughts. Ultimately, we could compile those experiences into a set of instructions for other users to follow. It will not be as straightforward as AnalogMagik, but it would be (1) verifiable, (2) repeatable, (3) more accessible and (4) checked against multiple references.
 
Latest version of the arm looks like this
key differentiator, and not easy to see from the perspective of the photo (sorry - am working in Denmark this week so cannot snap anyting better), is that its kinda dynamically balanced - the rear of the arm basically extends as far as the front (its a 10.5 length), so the armtube is effectively 21cm, with the bearing in the middle - i am guessing this solves some issues and introduces others, but its a fun journey, and it does sound pretty nice right now

over on the DIY pages i have been sharing my attempts at 3d printing connectors for flat foil cables, so if you are minded feel welcome to check those out here https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/adventures-with-copper-foil-cables.283553/

while looking for tonearm photos on my phone i found this, for my current cartridge azimuth settings, which might be interesting for the conversation:
 
Have you seen how much that AM software costs? You could upgrade your turntable.
 
back to your topic, i like the idea of instructions around our 4 points, and although not easy do, i always like a challenge :)

One thing that would definitely have helped me (and probably still would) is a well thought out logic on the order you should adjust each parameter - i.e. should VTF be before zenith - i am sure there is an order that makes best sense, but as, in most cases, adjusting one parameter affects another, getting the order 'right' would save a lot of fine-tuning

One thing that might be interesting is to change parameters by a measurable amount and record it each time, then blind test see if it actually makes a meaningful difference.......? for example, getting the channel balance above within <1db and 4% of phase was not a quick process, and gave me a warm glow of satisfaction, but I am not sure if it made me enjoy Herbie Hancock more.....
 
AFAIK, the Analog Magik software uses 2-tone test signals on their discs and measures the IMD - but you have to manually adjust the VTA, azimuth and offset to find the minima. Not many test discs come with a 2-tone signal but, if you had one, presumably you could do the same thing by needle dropping into Audacity and making an FFT and adjust for minimum IMD. I do have an old Shure test disc that I found crate digging that has a 3-tone signal (for their 'trackability index') but I haven't tried it yet.

When I saw the Absolute Sounds video I took a look at the Analog Magik website to see how much - and if you need to ask the price you cannot afford it. I understand they won't sell a tone of these so have to recoup their costs. I do recommend reading their FAQ page as it is quite entertaining - either audiophiles are a bunch of dicks, or the owner of Analog Magic has dickish tendencies - or both!

https://www.analogmagik.com/difficultfaqs
 
Have you seen how much that AM software costs? You could upgrade your turntable.
I try (well, tried) to keep cost out of the discussion since I am sure a lot of work went into that software. But yes, the amount of money requested is not insignificant, and there are associated purchases, including an audio interface, and the need to use a Windows computer etc, etc.

Having the ability to recreate those tests using readily available software (most of it free) as well as readily available test discs (most of them way cheaper than the AM option) seems to me a good way to prop up this hobby of ours. For IT-minded tinkerers, you can do the manual work and spend your afternoon and dial parameters in.

For non-IT-minded tinkerers, the AM is always an option, noting that you have to do all the work yourself anyway, and the software is just a way to confirm you are doing it right.

And it is exactly this that I have an issue with - there are no known references, and one has to trust the software and their discs to ascertain "correctness".

The simplest example of this is a "W&F" test which can be greatly influenced by eccentricity in the test record caused by the printing press.

AFAIK, the Analog Magik software uses 2-tone test signals on their discs and measures the IMD - but you have to manually adjust the VTA, azimuth and offset to find the minima. Not many test discs come with a 2-tone signal but, if you had one, presumably you could do the same thing by needle dropping into Audacity and making an FFT and adjust for minimum IMD. I do have an old Shure test disc that I found crate digging that has a 3-tone signal (for their 'trackability index') but I haven't tried it yet.

Now this is exactly the kind of info I was hoping will pop up within this thread. If you could expand on the steps to do this with Audacity I would be most grateful. I see that the Analogue Productions Test LP also has a "VTA track" - will check later to see if it is a "two-tone test signal" - if so, this is a high quality and readily available record.

either audiophiles are a bunch of dicks, or the owner of Analog Magic has dickish tendencies - or both!

...I was gonna say. :)
 
i am sure there is an order that makes best sense, but as, in most cases, adjusting one parameter affects another, getting the order 'right' would save a lot of fine-tuning

I have settled down on the following order (not all steps apply with every tonearm / turntable):
  1. Level everything;
  2. Establish proper turntable speed;
  3. Set correct pivot-to-spindle for tonearm;
  4. Mount cartridge;
  5. Set rough balance + rough VTF;
  6. Fine tune cartridge position using protractor;
  7. Set VTA;
  8. Set antiskate;
  9. Set azimuth;
  10. Fine tune VTF.
I am sure there are more efficient ways but to me this has yielded the least back-and-forth.
 
So I came across a video from The Absolute Sound titled "a review of the AnalogMagik V2" (*). I will not go in depth on the video save to mention that in my opinion it should have been named "a solely subjective experience" since it contained no effort to explain how the software works nor showed it in operation.

(*) For those that do not know what it is, AnalogMagik is a software that uses a computer + audio interface + their own test records to produce visually helpful measurements of the correctness of cartridge / turntable setup.

That aside though, it made me ponder about two things, possibly unrelated:
  1. How accurate can any measurement approach be, including this one, if they base their reference on the test records they produce? Wouldn't it be heavily dependent on the correctness of the test records? As I see it, it is a closed system that cannot be verified externally - even the people in the video state that they used it to "check" their previous work and found it, for the lack of a better word, "lacking".

    The Fozgometer relies on the Analogue Productions Test LP, which you can use without the Fozgometer. The Puffin (Parks Audio) can use any of the popular test records, including the Analogue Productions one, the Ortofon one, Vinyl Check by Tacet etc.

  2. Does anyone here use a computer to aid their turntable / cartridge setup?

    I would be very curious to learn what software and test records, and the procedures you take? I have used Audacity to (1) check resonance peaks, (2) determine proper azimuth and (3) establish correct speed, as well as REW to plot cartridge frequency graphs.

    But the software above states that they can also help with VTA and additional parameters, so there must be ways to use standard test records I have not thought of.
I bought AM package when it was released I also have owned second version but I prefer to use spectrum analyser , you can find some free basic spectrum analyser trials on Internet but you need to pay few quid for full versions.
Main problem is finding good test records , on AM some tracks were alright but others were not so it's best to use few test records and compare the readings.
Basic test is azimuth/channel balance measurement , use 1kHz left and right mono tracks ,
for tracking- VTF 315Hz and 7 or 10kHz tracks and measure THD,
VTA you need to test IMD on 2 tone test tracks same with a zenith and most likely you will find zenith adjustment to make quite a difference .
Obviously it is a good to run frequency sweep to give some sort of idea about linearity of your setup.
 
I have settled down on the following order (not all steps apply with every tonearm / turntable):
  1. Level everything;
  2. Establish proper turntable speed;
  3. Set correct pivot-to-spindle for tonearm;
  4. Mount cartridge;
  5. Set rough balance + rough VTF;
  6. Fine tune cartridge position using protractor;
  7. Set VTA;
  8. Set antiskate;
  9. Set azimuth;
  10. Fine tune VTF.
I am sure there are more efficient ways but to me this has yielded the least back-and-forth.

I’d add to that, somewhat controversially, to avoid test records with trackability tests etc as they invariably encourage setting for the worst case scenario when it comes to VTF and antiskate, which just isn’t what sounds best with 98.5% of records. That done listen very carefully to bolt torque as ‘tight’ is seldom if ever what sounds best to my ears. Especially when it comes to mounting arms on armboards, armboards to turntables etc. Paying attention here is a game-changer IME, something I learned from Tom Fletcher (Nottingham Analogue). Start with the arm just resting in place and listen as you increase torque, your ears will tell you when it is right.
 
I have settled down on the following order (not all steps apply with every tonearm / turntable):
  1. Level everything;
  2. Establish proper turntable speed;
  3. Set correct pivot-to-spindle for tonearm;
  4. Mount cartridge;
  5. Set rough balance + rough VTF;
  6. Fine tune cartridge position using protractor;
  7. Set VTA;
  8. Set antiskate;
  9. Set azimuth;
  10. Fine tune VTF.
I am sure there are more efficient ways but to me this has yielded the least back-and-forth.
I like all of those, and would add Zenith & effective length (unless Zenith is part of the fine tune at step 6) - how much this affects sound is related to the stylus tip shape, but as more and more carts have some form of micro-line, the more zenith matters - its also an annoying fact that as you adjust zenith, it changes the effective length
I did get a cheap USB microscope, and it certainly looked like many expensive carts were "out" by several degrees.....but without a really good setup its possible that was just bad tools and a small angle of the scope magnifying and exaggerating the image
 
I’d add to that, somewhat controversially, to avoid test records with trackability tests etc as they invariably encourage setting for the worst case scenario when it comes to VTF and antiskate, which just isn’t what sounds best with 98.5% of records. That done listen very carefully to bolt torque as ‘tight’ is seldom if ever what sounds best to my ears. Especially when it comes to mounting arms on armboards, armboards to turntables etc. Paying attention here is a game-changer IME, something I learned from Tom Fletcher (Nottingham Analogue). Start with the arm just resting in place and listen as you increase torque, your ears will tell you when it is right.
seconded.
for one of my 3d printed arm bases I actually had a sprung base, mainly so i could get really fine tuning on arm height - i moved away from that, but actually, might return, as it worked really well and certainly sounded good - key relevant point here is that the screws for the springs were tight enough to compress the springs but never heavily torqued - I need to reprint my current base, so might make 2 versions - sprung & unsprung - and evaluate in a little more detail
 
Main problem is finding good test records , on AM some tracks were alright but others were not so it's best to use few test records and compare the readings.

That is / was my biggest concern. Test records are notoriously non-standard even across batches, so having a (rather expensive) piece of software rely on a possibly faulty test record makes the point of "correctness" moot.

Basic test is azimuth/channel balance measurement , use 1kHz left and right mono tracks ,
for tracking- VTF 315Hz and 7 or 10kHz tracks and measure THD,
VTA you need to test IMD on 2 tone test tracks same with a zenith and most likely you will find zenith adjustment to make quite a difference .
Obviously it is a good to run frequency sweep to give some sort of idea about linearity of your setup.
This is all excellent information, thank you - we are already at a point where a very usable guide can be compiled. I have to say though I have had limited success with zenith adjustment owing to the fact almost all of my cartridges are variants with integrated headshells - nigh impossible (for me) to rotate the cartridge in the headshell to establish proper zenith.

I’d add to that, somewhat controversially, to avoid test records with trackability tests etc as they invariably encourage setting for the worst case scenario when it comes to VTF and antiskate, which just isn’t what sounds best with 98.5% of records.

I must admit to being guilty of that, but for a very different reason. Years ago, during a research driven by my contributions on a local (to me) forum, I devised a methodology around the use of the 300Hz +15dB tracks on the Hi-Fi News Test LP, but mostly due to the fact that it was the only record I could find that had the same tone on three positions of the record (beginning, middle and end).

It yielded interesting results which help me calculate the proper range of antiskate even without a test record, and it also confirmed a number of hypothesis already established about skating force (including works published by the Boston Audio Society in 1978 and Klaus Rampelmann in 2009).

The research, including all the audio samples, calculations, methodologies, and a somewhat crude translation of the paper I prepared for the local forum all available here:


That done listen very carefully to bolt torque as ‘tight’ is seldom if ever what sounds best to my ears. Especially when it comes to mounting arms on armboards, armboards to turntables etc.

Seconded ("thirded?").

Although I did this by accident I must say. I designed and built a SME compatible base that allows for repeatable and measured changes to the height of the tonearm mount. Knowing what I know now, I hesitate to call it "a VTA-on-the-fly" mechanism, but it does repeatedly and precisely set the height of the tonearm in reference to the playing surface.

It relies on using springs to maintain horizontality, and said springs can have varying compression rates set with screws. The entire armboard is then connected to the turntable base using POM (Delrin) fasteners of a sufficiently large diameter to facilitate minute changes to the fastening torque.

Details (and machining drawings) of the SME compatible base can be found here:


I did get a cheap USB microscope, and it certainly looked like many expensive carts were "out" by several degrees.....but without a really good setup its possible that was just bad tools and a small angle of the scope magnifying and exaggerating the image

These USB microscopes, even very cheap ones, can be very effective as long as you provide sufficient lighting. They do not replace a proper microscope, but a proper microscope warrants the removal of the cartridge from the tonearm. One alternative to this is the WallyScope, but at $1,500 + shipping + duty + tax, I think I can do somewhat better.

I currently use an Andonstar AD407 (~$200), but converted for horizontal movement, as suggested by this video.

for one of my 3d printed arm bases I actually had a sprung base

Not replied on this earlier, apologies - but your arm looks very interesting, especially if it outperforms an established standard like the SME V. I must admit I have not seen a pivoted tonearm with the tonearm wand extending that much past the pivot point in the back - it goes against accepted wisdom that the majority of the balancing weight should be as close to the pivot as possible.

I have seen such setups in manually driven linear tonearms, but not a pivoted one - would be very interested to see how it affects effective tonearm mass.
 
Came across this patent as well:


More than 40 years since filing - yet I haven't heard a VTA-analyzing device being developed (or sold).

It is an interesting approach though - years ago there were "cartridge analyzing computers" (I can think of at least two, the Shure C/PEK-3 and the Ortofon TC3000) - yet nothing like that available today? I am at half a mind as to starting up a open source hardware project like this.
 
I’d add to that, somewhat controversially, to avoid test records with trackability tests etc as they invariably encourage setting for the worst case scenario when it comes to VTF and antiskate, which just isn’t what sounds best with 98.5% of records.

I'd agree that people should not 'over interpret' test results. That said, they can be useful.

I'd suggest getting one or two test discs and using an ADC to capture the results. Then you can use Audacity to check basic details to ensure things are OK. But as Tony indicates. Mainly use modest test tones, etc, for guidance and the high level tests as a test of 'trackability' rather than aim to minimise *their* THD, etc. More interesting to compare results for L, R, L+R, *and* L-R as some carts that seem OK when viewed as L and R only can give strange L+R and L-R results that combine to look nicer when L and R! 8-]

In addiion to Audacity there is free software about. You can find some examples on my website. As supplied they run on RISC OS and Linux, but the source code is provided for anyone able to port it to Doze, etc. The app I did to check wow-and-flutter displays the rotation rate vs time as a 'distorted circle' as this makes any 'cogging' or other per-rev errors show up visibly more clearly. That can also give away any speed error as successive cycles don't have their cogging peaks/trought align!

cf https://www.audiomisc.co.uk/software/index.html
 


advertisement


Back
Top