Comparing caps with scope - have you seen this?
- Thread starter Linnik
- Start date
martin clark
pinko bodger
http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html
Take note before choosing coupling caps...
Take note before choosing coupling caps...
martin clark
pinko bodger
Les - quite right, but I thought it worth sharing that there are observable changes in behaviour due to little things like voltage bias.
ron
Tweaker
Yes, its all down to how the thing actually sounds.
Try measuring the output of a zero oversampled dac, it measures poor but the sound is excellent, certainly better than with oversampling added.
Blackgate NX-Hi-Q caps are actually good if used in the right place with a multilayered ceramic bypass cap on the components legs.
Try measuring the output of a zero oversampled dac, it measures poor but the sound is excellent, certainly better than with oversampling added.
Blackgate NX-Hi-Q caps are actually good if used in the right place with a multilayered ceramic bypass cap on the components legs.
Thanks for you all for your comments and links!
Your comments were about what I did expect and can easily agree. Could not understand much of Martin's link however and the photos with the line on scope did not much open to me.
Should we start listening paper/oil caps??
One question I once of twice tried to ask on PFM with no answer was: why tants in the reg boards? Could normal electrolytes work there. Now I have opened my eyes and saw Les is using electrolytes and not tants on his APX boards. Still everybody else (nearly) seem to recommend tants (?). I have not tried out and listened, obviously.
Any comments on this now??
BTW, on the signal coupling, it seems that Naim is still counting on tants in their NAC552 but did you see any RIAA cards in the 552?
I must say I just love Les (as many of us I persume) here as he is aimed to listening. And that was what I loved in Ivor and Julian, too. With these kind of people we are dealing with the real thing. The world is full of designers and producers who try to shine with theoretical brilliance. Science has got high, so high esteem today in this world... and thus it sells.
Education as RJohan describes is peculiar and seems to result in making stubborn engineers who do believe dumb and blind to the thesis they were taught. One example indeed is that they cannot see much differencies in the PSUs. Or cables. Or... They seem to think so axe against block ways that if electricity comes thru and shows itself in the meter, it has to be okay and better it cannot be. Quantities, not qualities. Then they, in their indeed scientific way, invalide every other opinion or question just by their own emotional beliefs.
God bless us sophistics and our belowed. We are the rare. The boring rare who dedicate to seek the peak.
I can easily understand how some other people may see us more than a bit strange.. Bet most people just cannot understand our passion and any worth in it. Understandably many things on this earth, round for so many, must look more important compared to how records sound at one's home. And the endless debate on those --- details.
It makes me feel funny sometimes when I compare men and women in these kind of things. How it obviously is very manly character to strive after such things. There is clearly much difference between men and women here too... They are special in standing our peculiarities as men.
Yes. The caps. We obviously have some job to do here. Solder and unsolder, listen and burn in... So let's do our home works!
BTW - has anybody tried tants on the feedback circuit of a NAC? I happened to get those 47 uF mil tants and after the maroon has shown it's best I may try them out there. Any experience from tants here?
Oz
Your comments were about what I did expect and can easily agree. Could not understand much of Martin's link however and the photos with the line on scope did not much open to me.
Should we start listening paper/oil caps??
One question I once of twice tried to ask on PFM with no answer was: why tants in the reg boards? Could normal electrolytes work there. Now I have opened my eyes and saw Les is using electrolytes and not tants on his APX boards. Still everybody else (nearly) seem to recommend tants (?). I have not tried out and listened, obviously.
Any comments on this now??
BTW, on the signal coupling, it seems that Naim is still counting on tants in their NAC552 but did you see any RIAA cards in the 552?
I must say I just love Les (as many of us I persume) here as he is aimed to listening. And that was what I loved in Ivor and Julian, too. With these kind of people we are dealing with the real thing. The world is full of designers and producers who try to shine with theoretical brilliance. Science has got high, so high esteem today in this world... and thus it sells.
Education as RJohan describes is peculiar and seems to result in making stubborn engineers who do believe dumb and blind to the thesis they were taught. One example indeed is that they cannot see much differencies in the PSUs. Or cables. Or... They seem to think so axe against block ways that if electricity comes thru and shows itself in the meter, it has to be okay and better it cannot be. Quantities, not qualities. Then they, in their indeed scientific way, invalide every other opinion or question just by their own emotional beliefs.
God bless us sophistics and our belowed. We are the rare. The boring rare who dedicate to seek the peak.
I can easily understand how some other people may see us more than a bit strange.. Bet most people just cannot understand our passion and any worth in it. Understandably many things on this earth, round for so many, must look more important compared to how records sound at one's home. And the endless debate on those --- details.
It makes me feel funny sometimes when I compare men and women in these kind of things. How it obviously is very manly character to strive after such things. There is clearly much difference between men and women here too... They are special in standing our peculiarities as men.
Yes. The caps. We obviously have some job to do here. Solder and unsolder, listen and burn in... So let's do our home works!
BTW - has anybody tried tants on the feedback circuit of a NAC? I happened to get those 47 uF mil tants and after the maroon has shown it's best I may try them out there. Any experience from tants here?
Oz
Kit Taylor
Well-Known Member
Interesting that Sanyo oscons score well.
They don't sound broken in anyway when I've tried them as decoupling, just rather weird.
Oscon SH 220uF is my favorite coupling cap, though.
They don't sound broken in anyway when I've tried them as decoupling, just rather weird.
Oscon SH 220uF is my favorite coupling cap, though.
ron
Tweaker
Hi Oz,
I've tried Jensen copper Paper in oil caps in my valve amp for the coupling, these things sound extremely smooth but lack realism adding a sort of echoe sound to vocals.some people like them but they are not for me.
I also don't like any type Oscons for coupling, they do hide a lot of flaws in a system but that seems the wrong way to go in my opinion.
Out of all the caps I've tried (a lot) the best type for coupling in my opinion are Multicap RTX polystyrene film, they are expensive, big ,need time to burn in and the values are limited, they are also revealing so won't suit everyone.
Regarding the de-coupling types it depends where they are being used, the triplets do work very well in digital gear like cdp's but some care needs to be taken when implementing them.
I've tried Jensen copper Paper in oil caps in my valve amp for the coupling, these things sound extremely smooth but lack realism adding a sort of echoe sound to vocals.some people like them but they are not for me.
I also don't like any type Oscons for coupling, they do hide a lot of flaws in a system but that seems the wrong way to go in my opinion.
Out of all the caps I've tried (a lot) the best type for coupling in my opinion are Multicap RTX polystyrene film, they are expensive, big ,need time to burn in and the values are limited, they are also revealing so won't suit everyone.
Regarding the de-coupling types it depends where they are being used, the triplets do work very well in digital gear like cdp's but some care needs to be taken when implementing them.
fatcat
pfm Member
Oz
I seem to recall reading that Tants are good at high frequency and that Electrolytics are poor at high frequency. Maybe the little thin blue caps Les uses with the electrolytics combine to to give good performance over a wide frequency range.
The cerafines look pretty good. I must put a few into my CD player.
Andrew L Weekes
Reverse Engineer
Tant's are pretty good to high frequencies and their impedance is just about ideal for optimum stability on a feedback-based regulator. They're reliable these days and they last long time
To be honest many electrolytics can offer similar performance these days, but they are inherently more variable in performance over time.
There are good reasons not to use either though, both suffer from very real and clearly audible (and measurable) problems.
That test is interesting, but only shows one aspect of the capacitors' performance (and even then, not particularly well), so the end application determines whether the results of that particular test are of any particular relevance sonically.
As with everything audio-related, there is no substitute for ears!
Andy.
Kit Taylor
Well-Known Member
Whenever I've tried osocns as decoupling they've given weird "fat" sound that might appeal to some but sounds veryartificial to my ears. Not really a great believer in audible capacitor burn in, but I've tried living them for a few days and have.
The SH type are very revealing as coupling caps IMO. Lots of fixes can still be made elsewhere.
I do suffer periodically from metallic harmonic "echo" though. Goodness knows where this comes from.
The SH type are very revealing as coupling caps IMO. Lots of fixes can still be made elsewhere.
I do suffer periodically from metallic harmonic "echo" though. Goodness knows where this comes from.