Coltrane Atlantic mono vinyl
- Thread starter Tony L
- Start date
I've now had a chance to listen to every disc (apart from the 45): all of them sound fine, but "Coltrane Legacy" sounds a bit rolled-off and "Giant Steps" slightly muddy (both still enjoyable, though). Heck, it might have just been the wrong temperature for my cart or something. Love the "Avant-Garde"!
The cover reproductions are well done. "Coltrane Legacy" comes in simple brown cover w/o liner, for some reason. The other LPs all have an extra sheet in with the cover and back cover -- no idea why but if you're the type of person who likes to display covers in those wall frames, hey presto, you can have your cake and it eat.
Back of covers says "Printed in the USA" (presumably historical), but the labels on the LPs themselves say "Made (or manufactured?) in Germany" -- judging from the quality probably Optimal or Pallas.
The cover reproductions are well done. "Coltrane Legacy" comes in simple brown cover w/o liner, for some reason. The other LPs all have an extra sheet in with the cover and back cover -- no idea why but if you're the type of person who likes to display covers in those wall frames, hey presto, you can have your cake and it eat.
Back of covers says "Printed in the USA" (presumably historical), but the labels on the LPs themselves say "Made (or manufactured?) in Germany" -- judging from the quality probably Optimal or Pallas.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Hmmm. You're not saying that Giant Steps sounds muddy in comparison to the HC Stereo copy are you? There may still be time to cancel my order!
Graham H
pfm Member
I've managed to listen to CD quality stream via Tidal, and my first impressions of Giant Steps are very favourable. Bass does not sound particularly woolly, there seems to be more energy in the rhythm section and it's nice to hear Coltrane centre stage in close up; sax tone, expressive qualities and articulation are fantastic. I don't remember these recordings sounding this cohesive or present. I will attempt to compare to Heavyweight Champion but I'm running out of time.
Hi Elephantears, I said slightly "muddy" but it could also be described as phasey or hollow. Perhaps it was just my ears that day, I don't know.
I just made a pre-breakfast nerd comparison between my HC "Giant Steps" and the new mono one (just for you
and the mono holds up really well! It's a tad louder but -- shock, horror -- I didn't level-match. And, as Graham says, it's nice to have Coltrane's sax in the middle instead of the hard left/right panning. I may end up preferring the monos to the HC set.
I just made a pre-breakfast nerd comparison between my HC "Giant Steps" and the new mono one (just for you
and the mono holds up really well! It's a tad louder but -- shock, horror -- I didn't level-match. And, as Graham says, it's nice to have Coltrane's sax in the middle instead of the hard left/right panning. I may end up preferring the monos to the HC set.
Seanm
pfm Member
Got mine today. It looks and feels great (very nice covers) and it is a much, much more enjoyable listen than the Rhino CDs I have. The slightly muddy bass I heard on Google play's Giant Steps is gone, and the CD sounds thin in comparison. Wish they'd do something like this for the early Ornette stuff.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
I was actually too preoccupied with deciding which speakers to keep to properly listen last week, but I did briefly try Giant Steps. My first impression was that it had greater tonal naturalism on the sax than the HC set but that the bass was unnaturally pumped. This was compared to my early pressing too. I will come back to this soon, but it left me wondering if I could still return the set to Amazon. Also, in my haste to order it I didn't realise that it didn't have 'Coltrane's Sound' or 'Coltrane Jazz', which are really the two Atlantic albums I'm most keen to have better pressings of. It's always annoyed me that the beautiful 'Equinox' has such a recessed sound to the saxophone and I think a really good mono cut could rectify that. I think this was probably a mistake for me, as I already have a decent early copies of GS and I'd prefer to listen to Ole in Stereo.
Seanm
pfm Member
Do give Ole a listen, it sounds great to me, not that I have another copy to compare it to.
One thing that might be a dealbreaker for some is that the sleeves are unusually thin at the top and bottom, although the spine is not. It's a struggle to get the records back into them, and you can see the bulge: they won't take long to develop ring-wear, I'd imagine.
No regrets for me though: I'd never really found this era very engaging, but I'm now enjoying these records as much as the later Impulse! stuff.
One thing that might be a dealbreaker for some is that the sleeves are unusually thin at the top and bottom, although the spine is not. It's a struggle to get the records back into them, and you can see the bulge: they won't take long to develop ring-wear, I'd imagine.
No regrets for me though: I'd never really found this era very engaging, but I'm now enjoying these records as much as the later Impulse! stuff.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Finally starting to give this boxed set a proper listen. Some brief expressions which I'll expand later.
Giant Steps; as I said above, the bass is pumped up, and quite indistinct compared to my early stereo pressing. It's very disappointing because this could be really good. The mono does have a coherence and organic unity, and tonally the sax sounds vivid, although it doesn't have the bite of my early pressing (nor does the HC version).
The Avant-Garde; this sounds fantastic to me; Coltrane sounds really vivid and dynamic. My problem comes with Don Cherry. To me, the trumpet can sound as if it is on the verge of clipping; it's very up front. Is this compression? Not sure what's happening here and I need to compare with the HC stereo version.
My feeling is that this whole box might be a missed opportunity to provide something special, but I'll carry on listening.
Giant Steps; as I said above, the bass is pumped up, and quite indistinct compared to my early stereo pressing. It's very disappointing because this could be really good. The mono does have a coherence and organic unity, and tonally the sax sounds vivid, although it doesn't have the bite of my early pressing (nor does the HC version).
The Avant-Garde; this sounds fantastic to me; Coltrane sounds really vivid and dynamic. My problem comes with Don Cherry. To me, the trumpet can sound as if it is on the verge of clipping; it's very up front. Is this compression? Not sure what's happening here and I need to compare with the HC stereo version.
My feeling is that this whole box might be a missed opportunity to provide something special, but I'll carry on listening.
Tony L
Administrator
I have a nasty feeling the only way to really get to hear this stuff is US Atlantic first pressings and maybe early Japanese pressings. The post-fire stuff is acceptable as the greatness of the music is still present and correct, but there is no escaping a few unwanted generations of tape are in the way. Given the choice I'd have a full set of US stereo originals.
Seanm
pfm Member
I found this too, and not just on this disc. Thought it was mis-tracking.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Yes, I wondered if it was my cartridge, but I guess not. What a shame when Coltrane sounds so good and somehow mono really works on this album.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Listening to Bags and Trane now. I find the Coltrane is sitting slightly back in the soundstage; it's an odd effect. Hank Jones is more forward, and sounds good, Milt Jackson lacks the sparkle I remember from HC box, but I need to go back and verify. The bass is slightly puddingy on some tracks. Can't really get over this recessed horn sound. Coltrane does have this clarity and space around him, but the placement is just a bit peculiar.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Now 'Coltrane Legacy'. Just did a quick switcheroo between the Mono set and the Heaveyweight Champion, comparing '26-2. They couldn't be more different. Again, pudding bass on Mono, whilst the stereo cut is nimble but rather bass light. Stereo has much greater clarity on the drums and Coltrane sounds a bit cleaner and brighter. It's a shame the mono mastering isn't as good as the stereo, because the latter is far too weighted to the left channel and yet again, the mono mix, if it were mastered well, would have more coherence.
Seanm
pfm Member
Real shame. "The Blessing" is really not listenable on mine. Makes it difficult to recommend the box. I wonder is the distortion on the master itself (I.e. this specific for vinyl master - it isn't on the digital version) or if it's somehow cut in such a way as to force an actual mistrack.
Legacy is the other one that I've noticed this on.
I don't have the mono set but bought the stereo in the 90's.
I too haven't found a definitive answer to some questions: Did all the Atlantic Coltrane Stereo masters burn? And another one I see bantered about the web: "Is the HC box partly or entirely digital?" All we can do is speculate.
I have liked having the HC box since it came out. Having all of his Atlantic stuff together. I always thought the sound was well enough to enjoy the music but not stellar, and the booklet is well done. In hindsight I'd put it down to reasons other posters mention here.
I don't remember seeing the words "analog master" or "analog" anywhere in the information provided with the HC box set and it was issued concurrently with a cd set. That makes me think it likely is not "AAA".
Which raises the question- if one did not know one way or the other would the average listener be able to tell? If one could, would the question need to be asked? Were reviewers of MFSL Lp's saying these all sound digital?
Like other posters have mentioned, the outtakes Lp's seem to be of better quality.
On the Jacket for the "outtakes" Lp's is the only mention we get of tapes and the 1976 Atlantic vault fire:
"With minor exceptions, every unissued pre- 1969 Atlantic tape was destroyed".
"The music that had already been released was safe because it existed on records".
I interpret these two statements to mean the original stereo master tapes are mostly or entirely gone and that surviving tapes are "safe copies" or production copies. Except for the 6 boxes of tape that make up the "outtakes" Lp's?
One thing is for sure, between the '76 Atlantic fire and the 2008 Universal fire, Coltrane's music has suffered a terrible fate.
I too haven't found a definitive answer to some questions: Did all the Atlantic Coltrane Stereo masters burn? And another one I see bantered about the web: "Is the HC box partly or entirely digital?" All we can do is speculate.
I have liked having the HC box since it came out. Having all of his Atlantic stuff together. I always thought the sound was well enough to enjoy the music but not stellar, and the booklet is well done. In hindsight I'd put it down to reasons other posters mention here.
I don't remember seeing the words "analog master" or "analog" anywhere in the information provided with the HC box set and it was issued concurrently with a cd set. That makes me think it likely is not "AAA".
Which raises the question- if one did not know one way or the other would the average listener be able to tell? If one could, would the question need to be asked? Were reviewers of MFSL Lp's saying these all sound digital?
Like other posters have mentioned, the outtakes Lp's seem to be of better quality.
On the Jacket for the "outtakes" Lp's is the only mention we get of tapes and the 1976 Atlantic vault fire:
"With minor exceptions, every unissued pre- 1969 Atlantic tape was destroyed".
"The music that had already been released was safe because it existed on records".
I interpret these two statements to mean the original stereo master tapes are mostly or entirely gone and that surviving tapes are "safe copies" or production copies. Except for the 6 boxes of tape that make up the "outtakes" Lp's?
One thing is for sure, between the '76 Atlantic fire and the 2008 Universal fire, Coltrane's music has suffered a terrible fate.
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Tony L
Administrator
It is all the more interesting given some Coltrane titles are appearing in the very expensive audiophile Atlantic 75 series. I’d be interested to know exactly what masters were used.
PS I’ve got the HC box. It is ok, possibly even good enough, but I’d very happily swap it for a set of any US pressings pressed pre-fire.
PS I’ve got the HC box. It is ok, possibly even good enough, but I’d very happily swap it for a set of any US pressings pressed pre-fire.
That would include a good lot of the US Atlantic pressings. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding them, though they used to be way cheaper, things are a little crazy in the vinyl world these days.
The few quick comparisons I've done, I noticed some more "room sound", a little more separation and air on the 70's pressings I have versus the HC box .
Generally the Atlantic studio sounds a little claustrophobic on most of the Atlantic Coltrane recordings I've heard. Some track's fare better than others. They have good rather than great sound regardless of the version.
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Theo
pfm Member
I have a couple of original Coltrane Atlantic monos. Covers are knackered, but discs are fine, and play with wonderful impact with a mono cartridge. However, they have become very pricey now...
I pulled the trigger on this one after Fremer's review though:
$55 from Rhino US.
store.rhino.com
I pulled the trigger on this one after Fremer's review though:
$55 from Rhino US.
Olé Coltrane (Rhino High Fidelity)
Buy Olé Coltrane (Rhino High Fidelity). Browse the vast selection of products available.
store.rhino.com