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'Cold' room

W

wirbeltier

pfm Member
One of the rare things that we all can agree upon would be that the room characteristics are maybe the most important parameter in getting the sound right.

So: I have a room that is 'cold' in a sense that it is little damped, high ceilings and almost square (4 x 4 meters). I once let an engineer enter my home and let him do his measurements. It was discovered that severe overlapping of frequencies (?) or echoes are occuring in the middle of the room, at a height of around 1 meter...

Great to know, but what do? Problem is, my speakers (ZuAudio Soul) sound almost shrill (no matter what amp) and I am not sure if there are speakers that would behave more room-friendly.

As I like my room as it is (furniture and deco-wise), I would highly appreciate if you could share your thoughts and experiences.

Thanks
Klaus
 
I have a room that has relatively little furniture, just two small two seat sofas and a reclining chair, and two footstools. The floor is bare slate, walls are stone, and I have a huge inglenook fireplace filling most of one wall. Then we add in an open staircase and a ceiling not quite 2m high. Walls are either bare stone or painted plaster, rear wall is plasterboard. So, we have just about every potential acoustic issue in the book. I use Martin Logan Summits, and they have almost no vertical dispersion, and limited horizontal dispersion. They are very fussy about positioning, but do have a lot of adjustability in the bass end of things - 25Hz and 50Hz controls. It sounds superb, and I think its the limited dispersion and maybe the lack of parallel or even straight surfaces that does the trick. Easily the best listening room I have owned.
So, maybe you could try panel speakers, or possibly modify the dispersion of the Zu's by adding bits of foam around the tweeters like some commercial speakers use.
If the room is square then a bass trap at the fundamental frequency may help, and oddly sometimes sorting out bass issues can improve the perception of high frequencies, I've no idea why.
 
JemHayward said:
I have a room that has relatively little furniture, just two small two seat sofas and a reclining chair, and two footstools. The floor is bare slate, walls are stone, and I have a huge inglenook fireplace filling most of one wall. Then we add in an open staircase and a ceiling not quite 2m high. Walls are either bare stone or painted plaster, rear wall is plasterboard. So, we have just about every potential acoustic issue in the book. I use Martin Logan Summits, and they have almost no vertical dispersion, and limited horizontal dispersion. They are very fussy about positioning, but do have a lot of adjustability in the bass end of things - 25Hz and 50Hz controls. It sounds superb, and I think its the limited dispersion and maybe the lack of parallel or even straight surfaces that does the trick. Easily the best listening room I have owned.
So, maybe you could try panel speakers, or possibly modify the dispersion of the Zu's by adding bits of foam around the tweeters like some commercial speakers use.
If the room is square then a bass trap at the fundamental frequency may help, and oddly sometimes sorting out bass issues can improve the perception of high frequencies, I've no idea why.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Sounds (sic!) plausible, the speakers having a dispersion not too wide.

Sure I thought of traps....but as written, the bad reflections culminate in the middle of the room at 1 m height. Just above the coffee table :D
 
Have you tried listening to different frequency tones to find out where problem frequencies are? Its relatively easy with a laptop and frequency generator software. You can assess it "by ear" or buy a cheap SPL meter and measure it. Only assess it at your normal listening position. The huge variations in bass output will alarm you, but moving the speakers around may reduce the problem (never eliminate it though!) then you may find some higher frequencies are peaking higher than the rest, try altering the toe in angle of the speaker. Do one channel at a time, then listen to both together.
One other thing to think about is room correction software. I used a Behringer DEQ2496 to good effect with my Quad ESL57s, though the MLs just dont need it.
 
Getting the room right and properly tuned is one the big challenges, but also should be one of the first places to start. Find someone who is in the business to come and give you some tips, usually for a relatively modest fee. Some things are best left to those that really know and understand how it all works, and how to fix it.

Just as a side, have you tried placing the speakers on either side of one of the corners of your room-firing them diagonally across instead of just using the flat walls? Might look odd, but this does work in a lot of instances. But dealing with a square room can be a tough thing. Tim
 
Mmmmm....thanks.

I am thinking of a pro to have a look at it.

But most also sell room correction facilities, so the outcome is pre-destined :/
 
High ceilings are an excellent feature for a good sounding room, and not a fault. They are the last place to put diffusers, IMHO. Low ceilings are what you don't want.
 
More soft furnishings, something to absorb/diffuse at the first reflection points,andsomethingbehind your head, a carpet ,that is where I would start even if you only position them temporarily.
Measuring your room will tell you what exactly is happening and where you specifically need treatment, you can also use the device to position your speakers .
Keith.
 
Purite Audio said:
More soft furnishings, something to absorb/diffuse at the first reflection points,andsomethingbehind your head, a carpet ,that is where I would start even if you only position them temporarily.
Measuring your room will tell you what exactly is happening and where you specifically need treatment, you can also use the device to position your speakers .
Keith.
Click to expand...

Hey Keith

These are exactly the options that can not apply: I do not like my room stuffed with stuff, and measuring detected that I would need treatment in the middle of the room at about 1m height. So there you go...

Klaus
 
Blzebub said:
High ceilings are an excellent feature for a good sounding room, and not a fault. They are the last place to put diffusers, IMHO. Low ceilings are what you don't want.
Click to expand...

mmmm.....the echoes in my room tell me otherwise. Sounds like a hall.

Maybe there is a way to make use of high ceilings I dont see?
 
wirbeltier said:
Hey Keith

These are exactly the options that can not apply: I do not like my room stuffed with stuff, and measuring detected that I would need treatment in the middle of the room at about 1m height. So there you go...

Klaus
Click to expand...

Then you will! need to look at active room correction, currently make the most capable units, I use one hear, but Freqs above 300Hz are difficult to treat electronically so you may still need some physical absorption/diffusion.
Keith.
 
What do you mean the echo is in the middle of the room? An echo exists between two boundaries, so you only need treat one of those boundaries, or both for stereo symmetry. Do you mean it is between side walls around head height? If so, you can treat it with acoustic panels (or a bookcase etc) or live with it. No other options.
 
Tenson said:
What do you mean the echo is in the middle of the room? An echo exists between two boundaries, so you only need treat one of those boundaries, or both for stereo symmetry. Do you mean it is between side walls around head height? If so, you can treat it with acoustic panels (or a bookcase etc) or live with it. No other options.
Click to expand...

I think that a room can only produce echoes when there is enough space so that sound can travel.... Damping side walls (or one of it) may help maybe. But that would be a very effective damping. Aesthetical questions aside....

I would like to know if there are speakers that are less room sensitive? Martin Logans were suggested before...

Cheers
Klaus
 
wirbeltier said:
I think that a room can only produce echoes when there is enough space so that sound can travel.... Damping side walls (or one of it) may help maybe. But that would be a very effective damping. Aesthetical questions aside....

I would like to know if there are speakers that are less room sensitive? Martin Logans were suggested before...

Cheers
Klaus
Click to expand...

There are no such speakers made. They are designed to produce a flat frequency response in a reasonably dead sounding room. The only other types are those small types that are designed to be used at room boundaries to drive the room modes.

There are only two solutions, one is room treatment and the other is active room treatments as described above.

There is another, use headphones.
 
ISTM there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. If there are a number of overlapping reflections or whatever in the middle of the room one meter over the table, that matters only if that's your listening position. Which it isn't AFAICS.

I don't quite get the point of this thread. Help me improve my room but I don't want to make any changes is not going to work.
 
Let us have some more information. What frequency are the problems? Since you said echo I assumed midrange or high frequencies. Still I think English isn't your first language so it might be a misunderstanding. Is the problem in bass?

If the problem is bass, then active room correction (DRC) can help a lot. If the problem is midrange and treble you can only use physical treatment of the room.

You might change your speakers as you said. Horns might work better.
 
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